WI Ulster and the rest of Ireland were united? (during the Troubles)

[Simreeve]

I've seen IDF manouveres and I've looked into what they do in the training, it's all about guerilla warfare. Establishing ammo dumps, hiding out in the countryside and such.



Well how did the IRA not get wiped during the War of Independence and the Troubles? They fought "unfairly" by Britains standards, by not piling into tractors and jeeps and trying to assault fortified positions.

Guerilla warfare, the art of teaching great powers humility.

Malaya. Kenya. Cyprus. Dhofar.
By now, the British army knows how to operate against guerillas in rural areas: It's only in the towns, in civilian clothing, that those IDF troops would have any realistic chance of continuing operations for very long.

 

[Ulster]

Well how did the IRA not get wiped during the War of Independence and the Troubles? They fought "unfairly" by Britains standards, by not piling into tractors and jeeps and trying to assault fortified positions.

Guerilla warfare, the art of teaching great powers humility.

Well, it should be remembered that by Michael Collins' own admission during the Anglo-Irish War the IRA was at most two weeks away from running out of ammo and having to give up. Though they still did quite a bit better than they would have if they'd politely formed into units, dug some trenches and kindly waited for the British to come along for a "proper" battle

 

[Macragge1]

Exactly. The airforce and armoured units are for use overseas under the auspice of the UN, where we'll be providing back-up to superior air and armour powers.

I've seen IDF manouveres and I've looked into what they do in the training, it's all about guerilla warfare. Establishing ammo dumps, hiding out in the countryside and such.



Well how did the IRA not get wiped during the War of Independence and the Troubles? They fought "unfairly" by Britains standards, by not piling into tractors and jeeps and trying to assault fortified positions.

Guerilla warfare, the art of teaching great powers humility.

The late 20th Century IRA were, at their height, a few hundred (usually nearer a few dozen active members) thugs who occasionally murdered a few policemen or blew up a Land Rover. They were never, at any point, a threat to British sovereignty in the North - not by a million miles.

The reason that the UK did not wipe them out is largely because they were acutely aware of public and especially international opinion and were fighting with one hand tied behind their back. The other reason it that, given that the 'combat' (or more often than not, shooting Catholics in the kneecaps) arm of the various IRAs was, at any given point, so laughably small that they were able to hide in the countryside undetected.

Should the Irish Army try this, it's a different story. There's a great gulf between dealing with a small insurgency and repelling an invasion of your territory by another state. The gloves will come off and there's really only one outcome however the Irish play it.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Malaya. Kenya. Cyprus. Dhofar.
By now, the British army knows how to operate against guerillas in rural areas: It's only in the towns, in civilian clothing, that those IDF troops would have any realistic chance of continuing operations for very long.

Is that why they're doing so well in Afghanistan then? Yes the terrain is different but it's basically the same deal, your enemy could be hiding anywhere.

Well, it should be remembered that by Michael Collins' own admission during the Anglo-Irish War the IRA was at most two weeks away from running out of ammo and having to give up. Though they still did quite a bit better than they would have if they'd politely formed into units, dug some trenches and kindly waited for the British to come along for a "proper" battle

Well of course, not to mention that this would have coincided with a full professional military occupation of Ireland, so no more Tan massacres to get sympathy, and no more mentally deranged Tommies who don't know how to duck to shoot at.

The late 20th Century IRA were, at their height, a few hundred (usually nearer a few dozen active members) thugs who occasionally murdered a few policemen or blew up a Land Rover. They were never, at any point, a threat to British sovereignty in the North - not by a million miles.

The reason that the UK did not wipe them out is largely because they were acutely aware of public and especially international opinion and were fighting with one hand tied behind their back. The other reason it that, given that the 'combat' (or more often than not, shooting Catholics in the kneecaps) arm of the various IRAs was, at any given point, so laughably small that they were able to hide in the countryside undetected.

Should the Irish Army try this, it's a different story. There's a great gulf between dealing with a small insurgency and repelling an invasion of your territory by another state. The gloves will come off and there's really only one outcome however the Irish play it.

You may not remember me, but I am Todyo1798 and I think we may have discussed the IRA before. So we'll take any sneering and hostility as read.

The IRA could not have driven Britain out of Ulster for literally hundreds of reasons, but as there main objective was to make British administration and operations in NI difficult, they certainly achieved that. And yes they were murderous thugs, but frankly do we're the IRA during the Anglo-Irish War. In 50 years we will have forgotten and they'll probably be seen as heroes.

I'm talking about the British invading Ireland again, like I've already said, it's called the Defence Force for a reason.

Also to call it a "small insurgency" is frankly a fucking insult to anyone who fought and died in the Troubles. It may seem small in the grand scheme of things, but to the people involved they were fighting for the heart and soul of their nation, whether it be Britain or Ireland.

 

[Simreeve]

Is that why they're doing so well in Afghanistan then? Yes the terrain is different but it's basically the same deal, your enemy could be hiding anywhere.

They don't have the necessary numbers of troops (especially infantry) nowadays to handle somewhere like Afghanistan properly...
And the fact that as they're obviously not going to be there for the long haul, with a British-supervised (and therefore reasonably honest) national government to promise the locals as an alternative to warlordism, along with the fact that they're allied to the Americans who seem to be a bit careless about throwing ordnance around, rather limits the amount of local support that they can gather too.

I'm talking about the British invading Ireland again,

Although I thought that the OP was actually talking about the IDF invading Ulster, not the British army invading the south...

 

[Macragge1]

You may not remember me, but I am Todyo1798 and I think we may have discussed the IRA before. So we'll take any sneering and hostility as read.

The IRA could not have driven Britain out of Ulster for literally hundreds of reasons, but as there main objective was to make British administration and operations in NI difficult, they certainly achieved that. And yes they were murderous thugs, but frankly do we're the IRA during the Anglo-Irish War. In 50 years we will have forgotten and they'll probably be seen as heroes.

I'm talking about the British invading Ireland again, like I've already said, it's called the Defence Force for a reason.

Also to call it a "small insurgency" is frankly a fucking insult to anyone who fought and died in the Troubles. It may seem small in the grand scheme of things, but to the people involved they were fighting for the heart and soul of their nation, whether it be Britain or Ireland.

I do remember and I assure you that there's no hostility or sneering intended whatsoever.

My reference to the IRA as a 'small insurgency' is simply a realistic one; this was a bunch of, at the most, 300 or 400 armed men fighting the RUC and the British Armed Forces whose strength in Ulster numbered in the tens of thousands, to say nothing of their material advantages.

There is absolutely no doubt that there was true passion in the hearts of both sides; men do not kill and maim like that for no reason. Similarly, there is no doubt that for the mothers and sons and lovers of those who were killed, this 'small insurgency' will have been, understandably, the biggest thing in the world. When we're discussing what we are discussing here, however, we basically have to detach ourselves from such feelings and look at things from an objective standpoint.

I do hope that I haven't offended you in any way, Todyo, as I assure you that it was not my intention.

 

[Ulster]

Well of course, not to mention that this would have coincided with a full professional military occupation of Ireland, so no more Tan massacres to get sympathy, and no more mentally deranged Tommies who don't know how to duck to shoot at.

Indeed. Those few occasions where they did launch larger scale attacks were a tad disastrous too (the Custom House and those 120 men captured come to mind...)

The IRA could not have driven Britain out of Ulster for literally hundreds of reasons, but as there main objective was to make British administration and operations in NI difficult, they certainly achieved that. And yes they were murderous thugs, but frankly do we're the IRA during the Anglo-Irish War. In 50 years we will have forgotten and they'll probably be seen as heroes.

And a disturbing number of people already do

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

They don't have the necessary numbers of troops (especially infantry) to handle somewhere like Afghanistan properly...
And the fact that as they're obviously not going to be there for the long haul, with a British-supervised (and therefore reasonably honest) national government to promise the locals as an alternative to warlordism, rather limits the amount of local support that they can gather too.

But they won't have any local support in Ireland either, unless you count Ulster.

So really, even if they have the troops to simply blanket Ireland, they're still going to be dealing with hostile population and continued military/terrorist actions against troops in urban locations. So how are the going to win this?

I do remember and I assure you that there's no hostility or sneering intended whatsoever.

My reference to the IRA as a 'small insurgency' is simply a realistic one; this was a bunch of, at the most, 300 or 400 armed men fighting the RUC and the British Armed Forces whose strength in Ulster numbered in the tens of thousands, to say nothing of their material advantages.

There is absolutely no doubt that there was true passion in the hearts of both sides; men do not kill and maim like that for no reason. Similarly, there is no doubt that for the mothers and sons and lovers of those who were killed, this 'small insurgency' will have been, understandably, the biggest thing in the world. When we're discussing what we are discussing here, however, we basically have to detach ourselves from such feelings and look at things from an objective standpoint.

I do hope that I haven't offended you in any way, Todyo, as I assure you that it was not my intention.

I'm not offended no, but your hostility to the IRA seems greater then I usually encounter on this forum. A bunch of thugs, murderers and gansters yes, but everyone else seems detatched enough to not write them off as just that. You however seem to basically view them as a bunch of career criminals who took up Republicanism as a hobby, spent all their time killing Catholics for not voting Sinn Fein and occasionally blowing up civillians so people didn't forget them.

They were a proper movement, with aims and a command structure. Yes, they maintained their hold over Catholic areas through a mix of fear and awe, but when viewed from an entirely objective point of view that's just political realities. You need to make people fear you and respect you if you want them to support you amd shelter you, and for both Nationalist and Loyalist paramilitaries that was the case.

Not to mention that originally, back in '69, they were somewhat more legitimate in their self-professed role of protectors of the Catholic community.

So yes, I can understand if you have a strong dislike or even hatred for the IRA, personally I have no love for them, but whatever your feelings they deserve some recognition for what they really were rather then what you see them as. A guerilla army operating like hundreds of others across the world.

Indeed. Those few occasions where they did launch larger scale attacks were a tad disastrous too (the Custom House and those 120 men captured come to mind...)

Well if Michael Collins gives any accurate portrayl of that, it was basically Dev (who bare in mind freaked out during the Easter Rising according to some accounts) trying to win some glory off Collins after his American tour.

Speaking of that, I watched that film again recently because I wanted to watch the scene where the guy with the MP18 mows down the Cairo gang at the cafe. I just love that gun.

And a disturbing number of people already do

Irish neurosis has terrible affects on short and long-term memory. You'll forget that your own grandfather was murdered by a Republican for talking to a British soldier, but you'll fly into a rage about a massacre that happened 500 years ago and has nothing to do with your family.

 

[deathscompanion1]

Just going to point out somthing.

The IRA has existed on and off for 100 years using variations of the same fear tactics yet at 3-5 seperate points the majority of the catholics supported them whenever this happend they won and the British signed a truce or made an agreement with them. Why if they were so cruel and evil and cowardly did their support reach the levels necessary to force a super power to the peace table?

Because it got to the point where the catholics couldnt take any more abuse from the British. The IRA was tiny disorganised and consided a dozen pistols to be a major logistical achievement support would often collapse due to disgust at their methods. then the would do somthing and the Protestants and or British army/Tans would take it out on the catholics who turned to the IRA for protection or out of respect for their willingness to martyr themselves.

You seem to forget that the IRA at it's height got it's support amongst thoes actively threatened.

My view point is I support it's earliest incarnation and it's early actions inthe late 60's and early 70's until it became less about defending their families and bringing freedom and equality and more about assholes willing to kill innocent people for pointless reasons. I supported the Ideals behind the Good Friday agreement the basic principle behind it in my view being if Catholics and protestants in Ireland dont give violence as their way the troubles will never end.

On a practical note The Offical British army summary was this according to a documentory I watched presented by a former Para.

"Although the British army could not Defeat the IRA it did make victory impossible ofr the IRA and thus achieved its mission as a stop gag measure until a political settlement could be reached."

On a personal note I am a southern Irishman and a supporter of peaceful reunification of Ireland some time in the FAR future when things have quieted down and we have sorted out our own internal problems.

 

[Falkenburg]

And a disturbing number of people already do

Ain't that the sorry truth.

I lived through it. A neighbour was a blanket man. I've rioted and voted Sinn Fein.
That said, I have no illusions about the nature of many of those who took part in the 'Armed Struggle'.

I've had cousins knee-capped. I've come frighteningly close myself (mistaken identity).
I've seen 'Volunteers' wink at drug-dealing (and take their cut) regardless of professions of abhorrence.

None of this is a unique insight. The dogs in the street know the truth.
War is murder. Guerilla War is squalid, brutal murder.

And yet my nephew's generation (18-20) are already wilfully ignorant of this harsh reality.
That's why fuckwits like the 'Real' IRA can recruit and operate.

Falkenburg

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Ain't that the sorry truth.

I lived through it. A neighbour was a blanket man. I've rioted and voted Sinn Fein.
That said, I have no illusions about the nature of many of those who took part in the 'Armed Struggle'.

I've had cousins knee-capped. I've come frighteningly close myself (mistaken identity).
I've seen 'Volunteers' wink at drug-dealing (and take their cut) regardless of professions of abhorrence.

None of this is a unique insight. The dogs in the street know the truth.
War is murder. Guerilla War is squalid, brutal murder.

And yet my nephew's generation (18-20) are already wilfully ignorant of this harsh reality.
That's why fuckwits like the 'Real' IRA can recruit and operate.

Falkenburg

For want of something more insightful to say, "Testify".

I'm not sure how old Ulster is, but are you the only Irish board member with direct experiences of the Troubles?

 

[Falkenburg]

For want of something more insightful to say, "Testify".

I'm not sure how old Ulster is, but are you the only Irish board member with direct experiences of the Troubles?

I'd be surprised if that were the case. Christ that makes me feel decrepit. /

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the most recent period we call 'The Troubles'.
I'm not that fucking old.

Falkenburg

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

I'd be surprised if that were the case. Christ that makes me feel decrepit. /

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the most recent period we call 'The Troubles'.
I'm not that fucking old.

Falkenburg

Well I was born in '94, hell I didn't really know I was Catholic untill I was 10 and my mother informed me that no, we weren't Jewish, despite worshipping the same God

But yes I didn't think you'd be older then 30.

 

[Falkenburg]

But yes I didn't think you'd be older then 30.

Flattery will get you everywhere. Add a decade and you're getting there.
I just have a juvenile sense of humour.

Falkenburg

 

[Enigmajones]

Would have been even faster if I'd seen it.

Falkenburg

Thats what I was thinking.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Flattery will get you everywhere. Add a decade and you're getting there.
I just have a juvenile sense of humour.

Falkenburg

Really? Well I'll be damned. I thought you'd be about 35-38 at most, so on par with my dad.

Heh, my grandfather's in his mid-60's, so can I assume you weren't a founding member of NICRA like him?

 

[Ulster]

For want of something more insightful to say, "Testify".

I'm not sure how old Ulster is, but are you the only Irish board member with direct experiences of the Troubles?

Oh I'm just an opinionated student who beat out some political views thanks to a confusingly mixed family*

[Having recently gone through a large collection of old family photographs we found:
-My Unionist, Presbyterian, fiercely anti-Orange Order great-grandfather
-His son, who by all accounts had quite the knack for dodging potshots from IRA checkpoints
-His father in law (my other great grandfather), who was in the Ulster Volunteers and was injured and decorated at Ypres
-My Catholic great-grandfather, a Nationalist election agent who for some reason is with a senior Official Unionist politician in the picture
-His son, who in the picture is with Eamon de Valera of all people - he was, according to my father, smuggled over the border into Newry for some reason
-My father, whose offices have been damaged or blown up by the IRA on at least two different occasions
-Plus a collection of distant uncles and cousins many times removed who were in the Ulster Volunteers, Irish Volunteers, National Volunteers, the SDLP, UUP, Sinn Fein and many other acronymed organisations

All this contributing to politics being a subject avoided in the household for the sake of harmony in the household and I formed no political opinions whatsoever until I was about 14, unlike quite a few of my classmates who blindly accepted the fantasticness of the IRA because either they never bothered to learn anything about them or they unquestioningly accepted what their older relatives had to say about it]

 

[Falkenburg]

Heh, my grandfather's in his mid-60's, so can I assume you weren't a founding member of NICRA like him?

Now that's before my time. Thank Christ!
Who knows where I would've ended up with a few more years head start.

Falkenburg

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

For the record I'm from NI, albeit a pretty middle class area and I'm 37 but I was never personally affected by The Troubles, yes I heard bombs going off or in one case sleeping through an explosion that cracked the window in my bedroom, but I never knew anyone who was killed or injured.

 

[Enigmajones]

Ain't that the sorry truth.

I lived through it. A neighbour was a blanket man. I've rioted and voted Sinn Fein.
That said, I have no illusions about the nature of many of those who took part in the 'Armed Struggle'.

I've had cousins knee-capped. I've come frighteningly close myself (mistaken identity).
I've seen 'Volunteers' wink at drug-dealing (and take their cut) regardless of professions of abhorrence.

None of this is a unique insight. The dogs in the street know the truth.
War is murder. Guerilla War is squalid, brutal murder.

And yet my nephew's generation (18-20) are already wilfully ignorant of this harsh reality.
That's why fuckwits like the 'Real' IRA can recruit and operate.

Falkenburg

If I can shed some light on how people in America can support the IRA, its mostly because the large majority are ignorant. I had the luck of being actually connected to my family in Ireland (as opposed to the "Im Irish from 1848" crowd) but even when I was a kid I was raised on nationalist propaganda. It wasn't until I was much older that I really understood that the conflict was multi-faceted with horrors on both sides. I visited Belfast a summer or two ago and I have to say, its a beautiful city, nice to see the North has settled down.

Oh yeah, and may I add, those Real IRA and Official IRA guys are a bunch of assholes.