WI: UK/France attack while Germany is in Poland?

Goldwater64

Banned
From what I understand, Hitler pretty much left Germany's western frontier wide open during the Blitzkrieg against Poland, but there was only one sort of half-baked offensive by the French before we got the "Phony War".

What were the reasons for the relative inaction by the British/French, and is it possible to have them attack Germany while it's distracted in the east? How effective would such an attack be?
 
Britain didn't have any forces on the continent and had a rather small force in terms of standing army. France had geared up very heavily for a defensive war. Their offensive capabilities were somewhere between limited and non-existent. The phony war was much more the result of neither side being capable of attacking the other than of being afraid to.
 
French army was a hollow cadre force. The French army was designed to re-fight WW1 in effect. The fortress line allows the French time to mobilize and TRAIN their army, they need several months to just any type of formations ready for action.

Its a practical impossibility for France to attack.

Michael
 

Goldwater64

Banned
Britain didn't have any forces on the continent and had a rather small force in terms of standing army. France had geared up very heavily for a defensive war. Their offensive capabilities were somewhere between limited and non-existent. The phony war was much more the result of neither side being capable of attacking the other than of being afraid to.

Ah, that makes sense. The way it's always been presented to me was that the British/French/Germans all realized "Crap, we're actually gonna do this thing?" and Hitler just happened to shake off the malaise first.
 
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If the British and French had successfully built up their forces after Hitler annexed the Czech speaking part of Czechoslavika in March 1939, they could have launched a successful attack in late September 1939. Hitler is overthrown and a peace agreement is signed whereby Germany withdraws from Poland. I doubt that Japan would pursue any ambitions outside of China if Britian, France and the US are not distracted by war in Europe. s So there is no World War II.
 
If the British and French had successfully built up their forces after Hitler annexed the Czech speaking part of Czechoslavika in March 1939, they could have launched a successful attack in late September 1939. Hitler is overthrown and a peace agreement is signed whereby Germany withdraws from Poland. I doubt that Japan would pursue any ambitions outside of China if Britian, France and the US are not distracted by war in Europe. s So there is no World War II.

And then what? In the aftermath Hitler is remembered as the funny crackpot dictator that got caught red-handed stealing another country from the European cookie jar who gets away with it simply by saying sorry and turning his troops around? I guess that means, provided the world also turns a blind eye towards what he's doing to (thankfully only) German Jews, Fascism in turn becomes a fringe but acceptable political belief in the West because "at least it isn't Communism," Germans rise up against the Nazi government when its realised the military it's been building up for the previous 5-10 years is useless and the economy crashes because Germany's industrial base had been so fully devoted to a war footing even before the war, and as anarchy erupts the nations that would be the Western Allies end up propping up a Nazi regime because it's better than the alternatives of anarchy or Communism?

Seems plausible, I suppose, but way too far-fetched for me.
 
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Mussolini is still safely in power. The survival of Facism is one of many,many butterflies. One on my mind is there is no GI bill, which makes it harder for my parents to meet.
 
'No offensive capacity'? A funny name for more and better tanks than Germany. The Entente were a lot less clueless than people tend to think. They didn't attack during the Polish campaign because they did indeed want to mobilise, train, stockpile, and prepare, and at the same time cut Germany off from markets overseas. They felt no sense of urgency, since time appeared to be on their side; but they were not counting on another 1916. That would have been splendidly stupid, since people in 1918 didn't count on another 1916.

But not only did they expect to go on the attack eventually, but they were quite prepared for German manouvres through the Low Countries. That almost their whole mobile force was ready to cross into Belgium was precisely the fact exploited by the Germans in their plain.
 
Equipment and offensive capacity are two completely different things.

Just consider the gigantic list of Soviet armaments lost in summer of 1941 and ask what the offensive capacity of such a force actually was...
 
Not to self advertise too much but I wrote a timeline on this (in my sig). There was severe disagreement about the shaping of a treaty and Stalin's actions during this time period. IMHO France needs the correct political and military leadership in place for a successful offensive. My POD was to engineer a political crisis that sees Paul Reynaud become Premier a year early (just after the annexation of Czechslovakia). Reynaud was an abrasive personality and difficult to work with, but he was decisive and from the very start he abandoned any 'long term' war strategies and advocated an aggressive campaign. Sadly in OTL he became leader of France with just over a month before the Battle of France and consequently was unable to effect enough change.

In TTL he also sacks Gamelin as Chief of the Army and replaces him with Weygand. Weygand has his problems too but is far more confident and decisive then the ageing Gamelin. (It would have been so easy to appoint De Gaulle but he was far too junior at that stage. If he was in charge it would be a Franco wank). Whilst I was researching the timeline I was quite shocked to learn that in OTL Poland started mobilising after the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact (understandable). However Britain and France put pressure on her to back down in case it provoked Hitler. The French and British leadership were so fearful of war they abandoned almost any sense of reality.

In TTL Reynaud solidifies his support for Poland and consequently both France and Poland mobilise after the MR Pact (23 August 39). This allows for two things. 1) More of Poland's army is prepared for the invasion; 2) The French Army is fully mobilised by 7 September 39. In OTL the Saar Offensive was planned 15 days after mobilisation had occurred. By the time the French Army was mobilised in OTL Poland had collapsed. In TTL that hasn't happened and consequently the French Army begins an all out offensive on the western front. I also note that France in TTL was more bellicose then our equivalent.

IMO the French would have captured the Rhineland and depending on their level of aggression and advance could have continued into the Ruhr and perhaps indefinately (when the British arrive). At their disposal the French Army had roughly 40 divisions. This includes 3 mechanised divisions, 78 artillery regiments, 40 tank battalions and an armoured division under the command of Charles De Gaulle. Facing them was 22 German divisions with fewer then 100 artillery pieces and few armoured fighting vehicles.

It was also German Western Siegfried Westphal who said the Germany Army only had two weeks supply of ammunition on the western front.

Of course in all timelines there's many variables and I hard sharp disagreements with people on what the post war treaty would look like. IMO the western powers will be much harsher with Germany post war to prevent a third such occurence.

In terms of the Far East I believe Japan would not have attacked the west but continue it's war in China. Without occupying French Indochina it is likely the Oil Embargo's don't come into place but relations would not be friendly. Stalin would be diplomatically isolated and as paranoid as ever. IMO he would feel strong enough to take the Baltic States and perhaps even get embarrassed in Finland, but he wouldn't directly intervene in Poland it is far too risky. I think he would intervene in China though which represents his only real option for expansion. The western allies aren't going to intervene to assist a Japan that has committed atrocities in China and he would know that.

I haven't worked on the timeline for a while but it's not abandoned.
 
Weygand confident and decisive? Not in any history of WWII I've ever seen, least of all those covering 1940 and France's defeat...
 
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