WI: Uesugi Shogunate

So considering a large part of his inability to claim the Shogunate in OTL was his death at fifty eight what happens if we give Uesugi ten more years alive? To the point he successfully establishes himself as Shogun and is able to successfully create a viable succession for the shogunate.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
That depends, do we have records on what the Uesugi want to do in the post-Sengoku Japan without having to rely on Samurai Warriors?
 

Delvestius

Banned
Uesugi shogunate would make Buddhism even more popular, and would probably establish some imperial Sohei monasteries.
 
The big question is whether this Shogunate would want to invade Korea as in OTL, which was a disaster and then led to the counterreaction of closing Japan off from the world since a repeat of that was something no one wanted (which then led to the counter-counterreaction of invading everybody and being crazy expansionist, because the isolation policy of the Bakufu was also a disaster and no one wanted to repeat that again. Followed by a counter-counter-counterreaction of disarmament and nonintervention because... you get the idea).

Of course even before getting to Korea there's the issue that a viable succession is nearly impossible. The Uesugi in question had no natural sons, but multiple claimants among his adopted sons. While the sengoku era (probably) wouldn't restart again, the fact that there are so much military forces around would guarantee some kind of succession war, which also happened otl after Nobunaga's death, between Hideyoshi (as regent) and Nobunaga's son (as Oda's blood successor). So its up in the air whether the Shogunate will even remain in the Uesugi clan for more than a generation.

And then after the succession war (whoever wins it), you have an experienced and battlehardened army, but nothing to do with it, and not enough land to reward all your supporters. Which is how they ended up invading Korea (though the ever popular 'south seas option' of sending troops to South East Asia for the delicious trade routes is also an option).
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Ever popular South Seas option? Who ever supported something like that?

And personally, such an invasion I feel would probably warrant similar results, if only because by that point European powers have penetrated themselves deeply (as in more deeper than Japan) into Southeast Asia, with the Portuguese and Dutch trade.
 
Ever popular South Seas option? Who ever supported something like that?

And personally, such an invasion I feel would probably warrant similar results, if only because by that point European powers have penetrated themselves deeply (as in more deeper than Japan) into Southeast Asia, with the Portuguese and Dutch trade.
Im not sure if it was considered much historically, but I recall a few threads having discussed the idea before on this website, so i meant it seemed relatively popular in alternate history.
 

Deleted member 67076

And then after the succession war (whoever wins it), you have an experienced and battlehardened army, but nothing to do with it, and not enough land to reward all your supporters. Which is how they ended up invading Korea (though the ever popular 'south seas option' of sending troops to South East Asia for the delicious trade routes is also an option).
Couldn't they try loaning some of that army as mercenaries to some foreign power?
 
A more successful Uesugi might restore the Ashikaga shogunate instead of creating another. IIRC, they're one of the most loyal clans to the Ashikaga.
 
A more successful Uesugi might restore the Ashikaga shogunate instead of creating another. IIRC, they're one of the most loyal clans to the Ashikaga.

So keep calling himself Kanto Kanrei! And what realistic chance do we have that can make him dominate Japan instead of being trapped in Echigo?
 
Couldn't they try loaning some of that army as mercenaries to some foreign power?
Errr... possibly? After the wars ended they'll be no shortage of unemployed samurai and ashigaru. Especially for those who were fighting on the losing side. If its a choice between having the ex-soldiers live as unemployed vagrants, banditry or going overseas in search of work, many might consider the latter option. Especially if its actually legal to leave Japan. The Siege of Osaka (1615) managed to attract what was apparently a sizable amount of mercenary soldiers to the rebel forces, simply because a lot of them didnt have anything else to do anymore after 15 years of peace and budget cuts.

Even as late as 1650 (a good half century after unification of Japan and the Battle of Sekigahara and 20 years after the last major military conflict involving Christians) the Tokugawa Shogunate was still trying to figure out how to deal with all the unemployed samurai wandering around. Though it that case it was as much because successive Shoguns ended up being a bit too happy with the revoke title feature of their offices.

It depends a lot on why anyone needs Japanese mercenaries though. The Tokugawa policy of isolation was as much because of fear of christian influence as it was about avoiding a repeat of the 6 year Korean War. The threat of foreign espionage, combined with an idea that foreign wars were a waste of time (over 100 thousand Japanese were left in Korea or the waters around it. In a war they didn't even win), plus protestant Netherlands talking smack about Catholic nations, led to a specific mindset that decided to cut off all political ties and keep Japan's involvement in the outside world limited to economics. It's not that hard to butterfly away.

And as said, there was a 15-30 year gap between demobilization (standing armies are expensive) and the decision to close the ports otl. So I wouldn't be surprised if in that time a few Japanese mercenaries didn't find themselves working for South East Asian kingdoms or European companies. Tangibly related, on the other side of the cultural exchange Nobunaga had an African slave who became his bodyguard (and a black samurai). Also guns. The daimyo loved guns.

Back to the op tho, there's so many places where a Uesugi Shogunate can go differently way before that. Uesugi was supposiedly a devoted Buddhist like Delvestius says so would be less friendly to Christians than Nobunaga. And then there's the (imminent) succession crisis to deal with.
 
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A more successful Uesugi might restore the Ashikaga shogunate instead of creating another. IIRC, they're one of the most loyal clans to the Ashikaga.
So keep calling himself Kanto Kanrei! And what realistic chance do we have that can make him dominate Japan instead of being trapped in Echigo?
Im not sure if that makes the succession war better, or a lot worse. Probably the latter. Then it becomes a matter of not only deciding who succeeds Kenshin as head of the Uesugi clan (or control of his household), but also who succeeds him as Kanrei/Kampaku as controller of the Shogun. That might tempt some formerly subjugated lords to throw their hats back into the ring. Since while only Kenshin's relatives or his generals have a claim for control of his clan, anybody who could form a coalition with enough troops to capture Kyoto and the puppet Shogun could claim to be the new Kanrei.

Overall it adds another layer of complexity to the issue.
 
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