WI: U.S. had 79th Division help

During the planning phase of Overlord the British offered specialised engineering armour to the their U.S. counterparts. Call it pride or over-confidence in their own troops but they refused the help (with the exception of the swimming DD tanks, probably the least effective of the funnies).

On the commonwealth beaches, Juno, Gold and Sword the tanks of Hobart's 79th Division were formed into sections with a mix of carpet laying, mine clearing, fascine carrying, bride laying, flame throwing and bomb firing tanks dependant on the obstacles and terrain identified by physical, covert surveys. The aim was to overcome every type of obstacle that could be encountered on the beaches and in the immediate areas behind the beach as quickly as possible to allow the following troops and vehicles safe and quick egress so the beach head could be extended.

The U.S. were reliant on pure manpower to do the same. On Omaha beach there were 16 teams with 12 men in each whose job it was to manually destroy the beach obstacles using explosives. Of the 16 teams only 5 managed to do their job due to a whole host of reasons and the paths they carved up the beach were not trusted because they were not clearly marked. Once the troops of the first waves reached the top of the beach they struggled to go further because of a shingle bank and minefields.

Do you think if the same system had been employed on the commonwealth beaches had been utilised on Omaha the the name Bloody Omaha would never have applied?

My own personal opinion is that apart from saving a few lives on the morning of 6th the overall effect was next to nothing, but I might be missing something.
 
My own personal opinion is that apart from saving a few lives on the morning of 6th the overall effect was next to nothing, but I might be missing something.

I share your opinion on this. I think the firepower was much more formidable on Omaha and presence of real German division made the resistance stronger. I don't see the funnies making much of a difference at all. After all, they broke through by the end of the day anyway. Few lives might have been saved, as you say, but not that much.
 
I share your opinion on this. I think the firepower was much more formidable on Omaha and presence of real German division made the resistance stronger. I don't see the funnies making much of a difference at all. After all, they broke through by the end of the day anyway. Few lives might have been saved, as you say, but not that much.
Now here's an interesting thought I haven't really looked into ... with the funnies mainly using Churchills, and knowing that the Churchill was a great hill climber ... would the Churchills have been able to climb or partially climb the bluffs behind the beaches and bypass the four easily defended gullies that led upwards from the beach?
 
Now here's an interesting thought I haven't really looked into ... with the funnies mainly using Churchills, and knowing that the Churchill was a great hill climber ... would the Churchills have been able to climb or partially climb the bluffs behind the beaches and bypass the four easily defended gullies that led upwards from the beach?

I think the bluffs were too steep even for the Churchill to climb.
 
They were offered, but Bradley just wanted the DDs. I don't think that he saw the value in them, which to me shows a massive lack of imagination. Montgomery apparently was all over them like a wasp on a collection of jam jars and had very clear ideas about what he wanted. I think that they could have made a real difference, particularly the AVREs, which would have knocked out the bunkers. The bluff issue is a key point however - but let's not forget how good the Churchill was at hill climbing.
 
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sharlin

Banned
I've seen the bluffs at Omaha, I serously doubt a Churchill could climb them, its very steep, even for a good off road machine like the Churchie its probably asking too much.
 
You're probably right ... but I haven't walked the whole 5 mile length of the beach so was just wondering if there were one or two parts that weren't quite so steep.

The far eastern end. Folks who have walked think it could have been negotiated by a M4 Sherman. Slowly. Hoever no one tried & the assualt planners who had accurate topo maps and photographs did not think it worth the effort.

As for the funnies, they would not have been a panacea. Utah Beach was quickly crossed without their aid. Wht happned on Omaha Beach was a failure of firepower. The naval gunfire preperation ws only 45 minutes, the bomber strike missed completely, the DD tanks were late, a companies worth sunk, and scattered away from their objectives, the rockets launched from the boats failed, and the assualt artillery that was to supplement the DD tanks were sunk or delayed.

Perhaps the worst failure was the Naval Gun Fire spotting teams, one for each assualt battalion or six teams, were all rendered ineffective within minutes of landing. I've not yet found evidence a single team was able to transmit call for fire between 06:35 when the assualt started and 08:30 when radio transmissions from ashore on the NGF radio frequency were heard.

On every other beach the preparatory fires had enough effect to aid the landing. On Utah Beach the resistance nest directly in the path of the lead assualt group took a direct hit from a 50+ bomber group, some 400 250kg bombs or equivalent inside a little over a square kilometer.

On Omaha Beach the defenders took few casualties from the preparatory fires. Some 20 AT guns and other cannon were left intact with the crews in good order, similarly the MG were nearly all able to fire imediatly.

...and on all the other beaches the NGF spot teams were able to direct fires through the assualt, No 90+ minute gap in fire support as on Omaha beach.

Now here's an interesting thought I haven't really looked into ... with the funnies mainly using Churchills, and knowing that the Churchill was a great hill climber ... would the Churchills have been able to climb or partially climb the bluffs behind the beaches and bypass the four easily defended gullies that led upwards from the beach?

One of the other problems was of navigation, the boat groups were scattered away from their targets. This was why the 35+ M4 Sherman tanks that landed in the first hour failed. Most were to scattered & to far from the enemy gun positions to effectively engage them, and when they tried to manuver along the beach to close the range they were picked off by the camoflaged & protected AT guns. The other Funnies would have had the same problem.

Consider how it might have gone had the bombers hit correctly and planted 200+ tons of bomb concentrations on each of the resistance nests guarding the exits.
 
... The bluff issue is a key point however - but let's not forget how good the Churchill was at hill climbing.

The bluffs were fronted by high dunes broken by marshy pits, seperating those from the hard beach was the shingle or seawall. The M4 tanks were unable to climb this barrier of rock and timber/masonry buttresses. Sixteen bulldozers were in the early followup waves, and were all destroyed being unprotected. So no ramps were made to cross the shingle. How the Churchills would have done in the dunes I cant say.

The urgent need was to clear the exits & to really be decisive the Churchills would need to get directly at the defenses at the exits straightaway. Spending a extra half hour manuvering through the difficult dunes & slope, with minefields & enfiladed by AT guns to get at the bunkers from the flank or rear might not help either.

They were offered, but Bradley just wanted the DDs. I don't think that he saw the value in them, which to me shows a massive lack of imagination.

The reason given ws a lack of training time. When the offer came there was less than three months to train crews, then train the assualt companies how to fight with them. Bradley claimed that was to little time.

I used to be paid to do amphibious assualts. While not a true expert in that art & science I do think Bradley was not the right man for planning such a operation. Clark had a lot more direct experience at it, both in training exercises and combat. I suspect a staff led by him would have produced a better result. Krueger seemed to have a talent for this as well, or perhaps that was his history attending the Naval War College & other interwar experiences with joint Army/Navy planning.
 
The U.S. were reliant on pure manpower to do the same. On Omaha beach there were 16 teams with 12 men in each whose job it was to manually destroy the beach obstacles using explosives. Of the 16 teams only 5 managed to do their job due to a whole host of reasons and the paths they carved up the beach were not trusted because they were not clearly marked. Once the troops of the first waves reached the top of the beach they struggled to go further because of a shingle bank and minefields.

Do you think if the same system had been employed on the commonwealth beaches had been utilised on Omaha the the name Bloody Omaha would never have applied?.

You are refering to the boat blocking obstacles here. The tetrahedons, Belgian gates, & log abatis. Exactly which assualt vehicle of the Funnies was to deal with those?
 
They were offered, but Bradley just wanted the DDs. I don't think that he saw the value in them, which to me shows a massive lack of imagination. Montgomery apparently was all over them like a wasp on a collection of jam jars and had very clear ideas about what he wanted. I think that they could have made a real difference, particularly the AVREs, which would have knocked out the bunkers. The bluff issue is a key point however - but let's not forget how good the Churchill was at hill climbing.

Another problem was resources. There were only so many 'funnies' available or could be made available in time. If the Americans wanted them too then 79th division could have been spread too thinly.

Also, Omar Bradley was not fit for his job IMO. He owed his position to internal politics and was just an Eisenhower appointee. He knew little about real fighting (just like Eisenhower) and asking him to think about something like specialist equipment (especially made by the British) would have been beyond his limited mental capacity.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I think the bluffs were too steep even for the Churchill to climb.

When my eyes first dashed across the sentence, I failed to catch the "the". For a moment, I had the image of the wartime Prime Minister attempting to scramble up the bluffs with a cigar in his mouth. Churchill was a great guy but he probably couldn't climb worth shit.
 
When my eyes first dashed across the sentence, I failed to catch the "the". For a moment, I had the image of the wartime Prime Minister attempting to scramble up the bluffs with a cigar in his mouth. Churchill was a great guy but he probably couldn't climb worth shit.

Bbahh. Just tell him that the champagne and brandy was up there, and hed beat soldiers a third his age.:)
 
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