What if not one, but two, Jewish states were formed at the 20th. Century. Let's say one as OTL Israel and other arising from previous homeland proposals, such as the British Uganda Plan or the Madagascar Plan? How would the two states relate and the impacts in the worldwide Jewish population?
WI Two Jewish States?
- Thread starter Alexpira
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A Capitalist Israel and a Communist Birobidzhan or East Prussia would be even more interesting.....
Best option might be the Jewish Autonomous Oblast being founded in Crimea as opposed to the inhospitable corner of Siberia where it was/is IOTL. After the Union dissolves assuming it dissolves as OTL the Oblast declares independence. Likely the waves of Jewish migrants who OTL left for Israel end up in a Jewish Crimean state, though I don't have any idea what it might be called.
Only possible Jewish state would be two ideologically different nation. So if there would be OTL Israel there wouldn't be much point foudn another Israel to Uganda or Madagascar. Uganda plan hardly ever was very serious and probably pretty dead by 1940. And Madagascar was ratherly Nazi alternative for genocide. And French hardly would be happy give their colony away. Only options with OTL Israel would be Communist Israel in East Prussia, Crimea or Birobidzhan. Another thing is what for such Communist Israel would happen when and if Communism still collapses.
danteheadman
Banned
I agree that a Crimean JAO would be the best way for any JAO to persist as Jewish. The Komzet even wanted the JAO established in Crimea and they founded at least three Yiddish-language Jewish communes in the Black Sea region. It was Stalin who decided on the far eastern location, for military and political (and possibly antisemitic) reasons. If there's also a way to significantly reduce Soviet antisemitism, which really kicked into gear with Stalin's paranoia and purges, then fewer Soviet Jews would want to flee the former USSR if/when it collapses.
In other words: remove Stalin. This makes a Crimean JAO becomes more likely and a consequently Crimean Jewish post-Soviet state possible.
Soviet Jewish policy before Stalin was intended to create a socialist, Yiddishist, and pro-Russian alternative to Zionism. Whether this results in a Yiddish-speaking or a Russian-speaking Crimean Jewish-majority statelet if/when the USSR collapses is anybody's guess. But the name of this Jewish state will probably just be "Crimea."
The Madagascar plan was a Nazi proposal, and was going to be governed by the SS. Not only would it lead to mass death, it never would have became independent, even in a Nazi victory scenario.
What about an established state converting to Judaism? My proposal would be North Korea.
The Kims adopted quite a lot of ideological influence from Imperial Japan, which was actually quite pro-Zionist and went out of its way to promote Jewish settlement in the hopes that American Jews would influence US foreign policy to be more pro-Japanese, and in the hopes of attracting Jewish capital for industrial development. Japan also was very interested in Zionist cooperative agricultural settlement and saw it as a model for Japan to emulate.
North Korea's Juche ideology is also seen as kind of a syncretic religion combining elements of Marxism-Leninism and principles drawn from the pre-existing religions in northern Korea, which now are primarily neo-Confucianism and Korean shamanism. However, before the Korean war, North Korea was actually quite heavily Christian, with Christianity having historically had a strong link to Korean nationalism. And, so, one of the first things that North Korea tried to do ideologically was establish a pro-Communist "Christianity with Korean characteristics" in the form of the Korean Christian Federation, headed by Kang Ryang-uk, a close advisor of Kim Il-sung. (The Korean War shook this up somewhat, what with Christianity being the "American religion," causing them to look to other religious influences like Chondoism.)
In a TL with a socialist or USSR-aligned Israel, I think an alternative option for the Kims would be to actively promote Judaism as "socialist Christianity," leading to it being the foundation of their new state ideology, "Jewche."
The Kims adopted quite a lot of ideological influence from Imperial Japan, which was actually quite pro-Zionist and went out of its way to promote Jewish settlement in the hopes that American Jews would influence US foreign policy to be more pro-Japanese, and in the hopes of attracting Jewish capital for industrial development. Japan also was very interested in Zionist cooperative agricultural settlement and saw it as a model for Japan to emulate.
North Korea's Juche ideology is also seen as kind of a syncretic religion combining elements of Marxism-Leninism and principles drawn from the pre-existing religions in northern Korea, which now are primarily neo-Confucianism and Korean shamanism. However, before the Korean war, North Korea was actually quite heavily Christian, with Christianity having historically had a strong link to Korean nationalism. And, so, one of the first things that North Korea tried to do ideologically was establish a pro-Communist "Christianity with Korean characteristics" in the form of the Korean Christian Federation, headed by Kang Ryang-uk, a close advisor of Kim Il-sung. (The Korean War shook this up somewhat, what with Christianity being the "American religion," causing them to look to other religious influences like Chondoism.)
In a TL with a socialist or USSR-aligned Israel, I think an alternative option for the Kims would be to actively promote Judaism as "socialist Christianity," leading to it being the foundation of their new state ideology, "Jewche."
danteheadman
Banned
"Jewche" would be about as Jewish as Catholicism, Sunni Islam, and Mormonism is: it wouldn't be Jewish.
Along with OTL Israel, it would be interesting to see a second Jewish state form in East Prussia, Crimea or Budjak.
Birobidzhan or some ATL analogue would be interesting within the context of a bigger Japanese victory in the Russo-Japanese war, where Japan manages to gain part or all of Russian Outer Manchuria (plus all of Sakhalin) and implements a viable form of the Fugu Plan (with such a region gaining independence after WW2).
Birobidzhan or some ATL analogue would be interesting within the context of a bigger Japanese victory in the Russo-Japanese war, where Japan manages to gain part or all of Russian Outer Manchuria (plus all of Sakhalin) and implements a viable form of the Fugu Plan (with such a region gaining independence after WW2).
Why not? I think "Taiping North Korea" would be on surer footing than the historical Taiping, and criticism of the latter as "pseudo-Christianity" is mostly confined to an essentialist fringe. Fundamentally, the major difference is that, in the North Korean case, the usual twisting of the religion to fit local beliefs and political realities would be supervised by a university-trained theologian instead of by a crazy guy.
Is it like an ethnic thing? I thought Prof. Sand blew that out of the water.
Deleted member 109224
Considering how North Korean Communism is hardly communist, why would North Korean Judaism be any more Jewish?
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Poland, Germany, and France looked at sending Jews to Madagascar in the late 1930s (1937-1940). If peace (or ceasefire) is somehow made with Britain, then deportation and a Jewish Madagascar could be an option.
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Poland, Germany, and France looked at sending Jews to Madagascar in the late 1930s (1937-1940). If peace (or ceasefire) is somehow made with Britain, then deportation and a Jewish Madagascar could be an option.
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danteheadman
Banned
Christian reactions to non-Christians adopting a modified version of Christianity is very different than Jewish reactions to non-Jews adopting a modified version of Judaism. Christianity is a dominant, proselytizing religion, with many simultaneous sects operating across the entire globe for the last two thousand years of its history.
Judaism is not.
The process you describe is almost exactly the same as the formation of early Christianity: a large non-Jewish population adopts an ideology that, though very clearly related to and inspired by Judaism, is rejected by Jews as "not Jewish," while the non-Jewish population asserts continuity with Judaism and proclaims Jewish identity, in spite of that rejection by Jews who follow Judaism. Christianity isn't Jewish and Christians aren't doing Judaism.
To be honest: why would "Jewche" be considered Jewish? It's cultural appropriation and syncretism to an extreme degree, not an actual mass conversion. Non-Jews adopting Jewish ideas or practices piecemeal does not make what they're doing Judaism.
Though non-Jews may celebrate Sand's work, his thesis about Jewish identity was widely and forcefully critiqued by thinkers from across the political spectrum of the Jewish world.
I'm not aware of any novel about Jewish Madagascar; do you mean The Yiddish Policeman's Union about a Jewish Alaska? Or if you did mean Madagascar, please share the title; I'd be really interested.
On the other hand, a TL where the Nazis do ship Jews to Madagascar, and then the Allies seize the island with several million Jews already there, could be very interesting.
Deleted member 109224
The issue is getting around the British blockade.
But, Madagascar had 4 million people in 1940. West of the Pre-Barbarossa USSR Boundary there are 4 million Jews more or less. If you send them all to Madagascar, and account for mortality that comes with mass deportations, then you end up with an island that's either 60-40 or 55-45 Malagasy-Jewish.
It'd be interesting to imagine how that goes.
Ashkenazi Jews would be the largest ethnic group on the island by a wide margin if you don't count all the Malagasy as one group. Today in 2019, the largest ethnic group is the Merina at 29%.