Xen said:Nice new idea, perhaps they can still grow into a dominating society, allying with Russia to overthrow the Mongols, then fighting Russia for control of Siberia.
NapoleonXIV said:Some other wild possiblities:
2. Islam converts to Christianity. A resurgent Byzantium with no Turks to worry about sweeps change into a decaying Islam in the 11thc, through a combination of conquest and conversion by missionaries. Islam becomes a sect of Christianity spreading its influence throughout the whole religion.
Conversely, the Turks create a more stable empire there much earlier. Arabia becomes a complete backwater and the Turks acquire the reputation of having saved civilization
True, it may happen. But it happened in the past too (not all the invasions were successful, rather the contrary): the point was that the barbarians were continuously flowing against the ramparts of civilization until they gave way. If the civilized empire wins ten times in a row, it does not matter: sooner rather than later the population pressure in the steppes becomes too strong, and the barbarians come back. But if they win once, they stay and become the next empire.Xen said:Perhaps they try to adventure out a couple of times, only to be slaughtered by armies of the outside world, the few survivors come back and tell of the atrocities, the chaos and the madness. For the next several centuries the Turks stay put having little to do with the outside world and deeply mistrustful of outsiders.
LordKalvan said:True, it may happen. But it happened in the past too (not all the invasions were successful, rather the contrary): the point was that the barbarians were continuously flowing against the ramparts of civilization until they gave way. If the civilized empire wins ten times in a row, it does not matter: sooner rather than later the population pressure in the steppes becomes too strong, and the barbarians come back. But if they win once, they stay and become the next empire.
The only way to solve the problem of nomadic, horse-mounted ordes is to bring farmers, rifles and railways were the use to graze their horses.
tetsu-katana said:What if the Turkic nomads of Central Asia had not migrated into Anatolia, but rather stayed in Central Asia?
Xen said:Perhaps they try to adventure out a couple of times, only to be slaughtered by armies of the outside world, the few survivors come back and tell of the atrocities, the chaos and the madness. For the next several centuries the Turks stay put having little to do with the outside world and deeply mistrustful of outsiders.
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:They aren't literate - they can only pass along spoken knowledge, and that won't last long!
Matt Quinn said:"Eventually Christian reconquests would reignite the Muslim spirit, but it was the arrival of the Oghuz Turks that really tipped the balance."
How many inroads would the various Christian groups have made in the meantime? The Abbasid Caliphate is decaying, and warring constantly with the Fatamids. You could have the Normans sign up with one or the other and gain control of lots of territory that way. In OTL, the Normans had some bases in North Africa; perhaps in TTL North Africa (or at least the coast) gets fully conquered and (through missionary work and European immigration), re-Christianized.
Plus you've got the Church of the East (the Nestorians) in Central Asia, who had many converts among the steppe tribes (the Keriets, for example, were all Christians, along with many Uighurs). The Turkic tribes might end up becoming Christians if they stayed in Central Asia, with less Islamic influence from the Arab world.
Hmm...how about the following scenario?
Normans and the Knights of Malta ally with the Abbasid Caliphate and conquer a sizable hunk of North Africa (say, from Morocco to the borders of Egypt, which I imagine the Abbasids could take care of), putting an end to the piratical raids that had troubled Europe and establishing a much larger version of the Crusader states (in a different place). Lots of European lesser nobles settle there, as do merchants who wish to reassemble the old trade routes. The Papacy puts lots of $$ into missionary efforts. Within a couple of generations, Muslims are a minority; perhaps Islam is the faith of the nomadic peoples in the deep desert, but the settled folks are all Christians.
However, since North Africans have historically adopted schismatic versions of the dominant faith to assert their independence (first the Donatists, then various anti-Caliphal Muslim sects), perhaps TTL's Reformation will be strong here. A quasi-Protestant North Africa?
Meanwhile, the Nestorians actively evangelize the Turkic peoples. Over the course of years, they migrate into China and (a smaller #) through the passes into India, linking up with their co-religionists of the Malabar Coast. Northern India and China get Christianized in a pattern similar to the Islamification of Asia Minor.
Hmm...in OTL, the title "Sultan" was given to the Seljuk king by the Abbasid Caliph. Perhaps we have Turkic rulers in India becoming Rajahs and in China, a Turkish Son of Heaven?
Actually, Matt, those nomadic people in the deep desert only came to Islam fairly recently; as I understand it they were pagan (in some cases with a superficial Islamic veneer) until modern times. Islamification (and Arabization, if that's the proper term) began on the coast and slowly spread into the interior.Matt Quinn said:Within a couple of generations, Muslims are a minority; perhaps Islam is the faith of the nomadic peoples in the deep desert, but the settled folks are all Christians.
However, since North Africans have historically adopted schismatic versions of the dominant faith to assert their independence (first the Donatists, then various anti-Caliphal Muslim sects), perhaps TTL's Reformation will be strong here. A quasi-Protestant North Africa?