WI: Turkey Joined the Allies earlier?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by CountDVB, Jun 7, 2019.

  1. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    So it's like the German Army, who marched around much more than you think once away from a railhead.
     
  2. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    The best use for Turkey is hosting airbases.
    Far easier to supply Turkey than running B-29s from China
     
  3. wiking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Not even remotely close.
     
  4. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Tell us all about the vast amount of motorized transport that 2nd line Heer units had.

    Yes the Germans had motorized Infantry divisions.

    But also with a lot of horse drawn gear, like the Turks. What was the Heer doing with a million of Horses in services, Pony shows?
    ...by 1939, the German army possessed some 590,000 horses...[the German army] was still primarily dependent on horses, of which Poland was to supply the majority, to the tune of 4000 per week in April of 1940
    [...]
    The campaign [in the west] was also a major boon for the German army's horse situation, as access was now gained to the valuable horse-breeding areas of Holland, Belgium and Normandy
    [...]
    By June 1941, the army in the east had assembled some 625,000 horses. Of these, the single largest concentration was in the Fourth Army (twelve infantry and one security divisions), which by 13 June 1941 possessed some 130,000 horses, over 20 per cent of the total number.

    Although the campaign [in the east] opened for the Germans with a series of brilliant successes, a number of problems were encountered. During advances in the hot Russian summer, German forces had to make frequent stops - some at great length - in order to water their horses. Worse problems were encountered with providing food, particularly in Army Groups North and Centre. Hard fodder had to be shipped to units through the supply system, creating an additional burden on an already overstrained network.The horses most affected by the food shortage were the heavier western breeds, which were also unaccustomed to the Russian climate. The Russians had large numbers of horses, but these could not be used immediately. The 'panje'* horses were hardy animals, but too light to pull the standard 105 mm artillery gun**. Also, the standard German horse-drawn vehicle was made of steel*** and was too heavy for the Russian horses. It was only after the Germans produced a lighter vehicle - or took Russian wagons - that Russian horses could be used cost-effectively [...]

    The winter of 1941 produced the greatest crisis. Horse losses in Army Group Centre had reached about 1000 per day [...]

    The standard German infantry division (1939 pattern) required anything from 4077 to 6033 horses to move. However, German divisions rarely had more than 150 horses in reserve. Moreover, German veterinary hospitals, which could handle from 500 (divisional veterinary company) to 550 (army hospital) horses, were swamped, often having to treat 2-3000 horses at one time.

    Yet the Wehrmacht survived. Replacements and captured horses were sent to veterinary collecting stations for medical examination. Horses no longer fit for military service but able to work were evacuated and later sold to farmers. Those too weak to be evacuated were slaughtered for meat. Measures like these enabled the army to endure, even though the Germans lost a total of 180,000 horses during the winter of 1941.

    For the fateful campaign of 1942, the German horse situation looked better. Over 200,000 horses were brought in from Germany and the occupied countries, although only about half of them had arrived at the front by May. Since the major offensive operations were to be conducted in the south, the divisions in Army Group South obtained the full complement of horses [...] by 1942 the Germans were using much lighter vehicles, or wooden carts, which allowed them to make use of the large number of Russian horses in occupied areas [...]

    By 1 February 1945 the Wehrmacht was able to deploy some 1,198,724 horses [...]
    [...]
    The total number of horses lost by Germany during the war was estimated at some 1,500,000.
    [...]

    The Wehrmacht's reliance on horses was also deeply felt in European agriculture. The most immediate effect, of course, was on horse population. Equally obvious was the fact that those areas where campaigns were hardest-fought lost the most horses. The Soviet Union's horse population was decimated. From a total of 21,000,000 in 1940, by 1943 the number had fallen to a low of 7,800,000, a drop of almost two thirds. Of the 11,600,000 horses in occupied territory, some 7,000,000 were 'killed or taken away'.

    --_
    Horse-Drawn Transport in the German Army _

    Seems like they were pretty important
     
  5. Carnivorous Vegetarian Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    This time, they will take Vienna!
     
  6. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Because the Free Polish Anders Army would be assisting
     
  7. wiking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    They were averaging about 950 motor vehicles in foot infantry divisions in 1941, vastly more than the Turkish army could muster for their best divisions.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=UmwwBwAAQBAJ&q=motor+vehicles#v=snippet&q=motor vehicles&f=false

    Germany had more panzer+motorized divisions than the Turks had divisions of all kinds in their entire army!
    Oh and they didn't even have enough rifles for all their soldiers:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Republic_of_Turkey#World_War_II
     
  8. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    But those panzer and motorized divisions are busy in the USSR. Really going to send the 'A-Team' to Turkey?

    I've seen this for German TO&E on axis history forum
    1939-1941
    - Staff Div. Supply Leader
    - 6 small vehicle col., 30 t each
    - 1 small fuel column, 30 t
    - 1 vehicle repair platoon
    - 1-2 wagon columns, 30 t each
    - 1 supply company (t-mot), 3 platoons
    - 1 ammunition command at division supply leader

    1942 - 1945

    Infantry Division
    - Staff Cmdr. Div. Supply Troop
    - 1-3 vehicle companies 90 t each
    - 1 vehicle repair platoon
    - 1-3 wagon squads, 60 t each
    - 1 supply company (t-mot), 3 platoons
    - 1 ammunition command at staff

    Motor Vehicle (Kw.) Columns:

    Are divided into small columns with 30-ton load limit on ten medium or heavy trucks,
    and large columns with 60-ton load limit in 20 medium or heavy trucks.

    Equipment of a Small Supply Column with 30-ton Load Limit:

    1 to 2 cars, 1 to 2 motorcycles
    2 groups of trucks, each with a total load limit of 15 tons, and a third group
    (Wirtschaftsgruppe) of 3-ton capability.

    Equipment of a Large Supply Column with 60-ton Load Limit:

    2 cars, 2 motorcycles
    4 groups of trucks, each with a total load limit of 15 tons, and a 5th group
    (Wirtschaftsgruppe) consisting on 2 fuel and equipment trucks, each 3-ton load
    limit, and 1 medium truck to carry food and baggage.

    Horse-Drawn Columns:

    With total load limit of 30 tons on 40 two- or one-horse field wagons or typical
    native vehicles.

    Average Strengths

    [Unit] Vehicles Horses Wagons

    Vehicle Company: 45-88 - -
    Wagon Squadron: 1, 203, 82
    Supply Company (mot.): 105, 14, - -
    Supply Company (t-mot.): 151, 8, 10, 5


    I'm not seeing how you get an average of 950, considering all the 2nd tier division the Heer had after 1941
     
  9. wiking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    It included motorcycles as well. Should have been in the link somewhere. Depending on when Turkey would enter the war there are units that can be diverted to Turkey, including a number of mountain divisions as well as Italians and Bulgarians. Plus it's not like Istanbul is defensible given the terrain, their military strength, and the infrastructure linking Bulgaria with the city.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019 at 9:23 AM
  10. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    The Italians, who had problems with the Greek Army?
    That should end well for the Moose trying to regain the rest of Byzantium.
     
  11. wiking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    And stomped the Soviets in Russia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itali...nt#Italian_8th_Army_or_Italian_Army_in_Russia
    Against what the Turks had it wouldn't be that hard around Istanbul.
    As it was the Italians did have a history of defeating the Turks in the 20th Century:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Turkish_War
     
  12. sloreck Grunt Bear

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Location:
    Midwest
    Prior to 1944 the only way the Allies can deliver supplies to Turkey, or bring any troops in is via the Persian Gulf route or around Africa to Suez then overland through Palestine and Syria to Turkey. In the first case this means some of the capacity of the Persian Gulf route OTL used to being LL to Russia is diverted to Turkey, which is going to have some level of negative effect on the USSR depending on how much diversion there is. Between the Germans, Italians, Bulgarians they can take Istanbul. It may be like Leningrad at first, but they can starve the city out. Certainly they can jump the Bosphorus, and go in to Anatolia for some distance, and the Turks have no significant anti-armor capability even against Panzer-IIIs and even less air ability. If the UK/USA move air units in to Turkey before a DoW, the Germans will realize what is up, if their spies in Turkey don't already have that information and strike first. Supporting significant US/UK air, enough to make a difference, is going to be a huge logistical effort given that the existing infrastructure is crap, and basically everything except food needs to be brought in from very far away.

    Turkey is looking at the Nazis and Italians in Greece and the offshore islands a stones throw from the coast, as well as the Bulgarians. Their army is in very bad shape, their navy essentially non-existent, as is their air force. The UK's effort in Greece and Crete is hardly confidence inspiring. The only thing the Turks may want less than German forces in Turkey is Russian forces offering "fraternal assistance" whether or not they want it. The only reason Turkey DoW'd Germany was to get some sort of stool (not seat) at the table and to be in a position to prevent the Russians from entering Turkey on one pretext or another. They might enter a little sooner than OTL but significantly sooner, no way.

    Finally, the concept of Turkish troops entering Greece as "liberators" would make the Greeks beg the Germans and Italians to come back. This would get very ugly very quickly.
     
  13. Byzantion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2013
    Location:
    Forum Romanum, Suburra
    What if they intervene in occupation of Greece ?
     
  14. David T Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    As long as there seemed to be any chance of Germany actually winning the war--as there certainly did in 1941 and even 1942--the incentives against Turkey joining the Allies were overwhelming.

    In any event, as the Italian ambassador put it, the Turkish ideal was that "the last German soldier should fall upon the last Russian corpse." https://books.google.com/books?id=PlcpRNvsM4cC&pg=PA65

    When a nation has determined that its basic national interest demands neutrality, it is unlikely to allow an "incident" like this to change its course. (This is especially true of an authoritarian nation as Turkey was at the time, where it is harder for "public opinion" to force the government into a war it does not want. But even in a democracy, "incidents" do not necessarily lead ro belligerence--popular opinion in the US became more anti-war after the Panay incident.)
     
  15. CountDVB Dual Emperor of the Aztech and Maychanical Empires

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Surprised this was revived, though i finished what I was doing with this