WI: Turenne VS Cromwell in 1658

WI: Turenne VS Cromwell in 1658

  • Turenne wins

    Votes: 24 63.2%
  • Cromwell wins

    Votes: 12 31.6%
  • tie

    Votes: 2 5.3%

  • Total voters
    38
WI: Turenne VS Cromwell in 1658


Turenne and Cromwell were arguably the two best generals of their age. For this scenario the battle will be set in 1658 and will be a modified Battle of the Dunes. Force strength of both sides is towards the bottom of page.


Turenne, Napoleon’s favorite commander and arguably the greatest French general of the 17th century. He is known universally as one the best maneuver generals in history. He for most of the time completely confuses his enemies into believe attacks are coming from directions they actually aren’t. An example of this is at the Battle of Turkheim where he tricked the opposing general twice. Turenne first tricked his opponent into thinking he was in winter quarters, then when his opponent finally realized, Turenne tricked him again into thinking an attack was coming on his right flank at the town of Colmar when in fact it was coming from the rear at the town of Turkheim. This is an example of what brilliant maneuvers, screening forces, and counter marching can do to an enemy. Turenne’s basic strategy is to make his opponents feel like their heads on a swivel. Two other things to keep in mind about Turenne is that he is exceptionally brave and is almost always on the front lines, this is partly the reason he gets killed by a cannonball in 1675. He also suffers from very poor eye sight so he always is surrounded by aids that help him direct the battle.


Cromwell the victor of the Battle of Dunbar and the Lord Protector of England. He was always eager to bring his enemy to battle quickly he was not one to waste time on extended maneuvers. In fact during the Dunes campaign he criticized Turenne for spending too much time maneuvering in Luxemburg. (Turenne was trying to draw his enemy out into a trap) Cromwell understood the principle of concentration well and used it often. One criticism that seems to follow Cromwell and England’s forces of his period is there over eagerness for combat and their seeming inability to know when to stop. This criticism comes from three events, the massacres at Drogheda and Wexford, the third event happened at the Battle of the Dunes itself where English forces under General Lockhart charged without orders.


OTL Battle of the Dunes pitted a Commonwealth-French force under the command of Turenne, who commanded the battle while his superior Oliver Cromwell was back in England directing his movements by letter, taking on a Royalist-Fronde French-Spanish force under the command of Conde, Juan Jose and the Duke of York. In the real campaign Turenne and Cromwell rolled over the enemy force. For my ATL campaign the Royalist and Commonwealth forces are switching sides and I am pretending that Cromwell is there in person.

Turenne’s forces 19,000 soldiers total
2,000 Royalist infantry: 1 Scottish regiment, 1 English regiment and 3 Irish regiments
2,000 French and Swiss infantry
9,000 cavalry which are a mixture of light and heavy cavalry, including German cavalry that Turenne personally recruited during the Thirty Years War and dismounted French dragoons.
6,000 French and Picardy infantry that are busy besieging Dunkirk in the rear can be used if needed
Cromwell’s forces 18,000 soldiers total
6,000 English New Model Army infantry, (2000 of which are suffering from illness)
4,000 Spanish and French Infantry, including Spanish Tercios
5,000 thousand cavalry a mix of French, English and Spanish
3,000 Infantry trapped in Dunkirk
3 English frigates of coast that can provide bombardments

Terrain
Cromwell’s forces have a 160 ft sand dune on their side of the battlefield that some troops can be deployed upon; also Cromwell’s side of the field suffers from flooding. Turenne’s deployment area is for the most part just a flat beach.
The question is who wins this modified version of the Battle of the Dunes?

source
Turenne by Henry Hozier
Marshall Turenne by Thomas Loungeuville
Battle of the Dunes by Roy Morris
Masters of the Battleifld by Julian Thompson
 
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I think Cromwell would win not because of his superior skill but because of the NMA. By this point in time they were the best disciplined force with the best doctrine in Europe and among the most battle hardened.
 
I think Cromwell would win not because of his superior skill but because of the NMA. By this point in time they were the best disciplined force with the best doctrine in Europe and among the most battle hardened.


Yeah, the NMA is pretty terrific, but Cromwell still has a weak link in his army. The Spanish troops at the real Battle of the Dunes had really low moral they surrendered in droves, 6000 in total.

Turenne's strongest unit would probably be the Irish Regiment, they held out the longest of any unit on the losing side in OTL, though they are no were as good as the NMA. Turenne does have the advantge that almost all of his troops have seen combat before, While Cromwell has Spanish troops, a good amount of which are Walloons, whose commitment is questionable.
 
I think Cromwell would win not because of his superior skill but because of the NMA. By this point in time they were the best disciplined force with the best doctrine in Europe and among the most battle hardened.

New Model Army is overrated. Hardly "Best Doctrine in Europe" - they are just lucked into not facing anybody outside of islands.
The only thing that was good for him was cavalry, the infantry was obsolete and performed only as passive support of battle order, artillery was good but not impressive in the eyes of 30years war veterans like Turenne. It's just that Royalists had even worse condition of troops for most part.

Discipline was an edge. Over Royalists and Scots. Not as much over trained army. In short - unlike Gustavus Adolphus versus, I bet on Turenne. NMA infantry was crappy, Tercios are already soundly beated by French before, and Cromwell is given not enough cavalry to have an edge over Turenne in what was his strongest side.
 
New Model Army is overrated. Hardly "Best Doctrine in Europe" - they are just lucked into not facing anybody outside of islands.
The only thing that was good for him was cavalry, the infantry was obsolete and performed only as passive support of battle order, artillery was good but not impressive in the eyes of 30years war veterans like Turenne. It's just that Royalists had even worse condition of troops for most part.

Discipline was an edge. Over Royalists and Scots. Not as much over trained army. In short - unlike Gustavus Adolphus versus, I bet on Turenne. NMA infantry was crappy, Tercios are already soundly beated by French before, and Cromwell is given not enough cavalry to have an edge over Turenne in what was his strongest side.

I disagree. The NMA faced Spanish and Royalist forces when fighting alongside the French in Flanders.

The Commonwealth contingent in Turenne's army fought with distinction and impressed their French allies with a successful assault up a strongly defended sandhill 150 feet high during the battle.

Whilst I know a strong land army is more important for mainland France, the NMA was a powerful concept in itself. I don't know much about Turenne but the NMA will give him a run for his money at least.
 
Was there the same infantry as on islands?;)
Cause the infantry was their weak link.

The 6,000 troops in Flanders were all Civil War Veterans. Assuming the 6,000 infantry are the SAME 6,000 as per the actual battle, then they are likely to perform well. We're not talking green recruits here, Veterans who have the NMA techniques down to a science.

Like I said, not knowing enough about Turenne and his troops I can't say who is stronger, but I do know that the NMA forces will put up a good fight.

As OP states, Cromwell has the high ground, this will be very useful.

Though I agree a mixed cavalry group plus weaker French/Spanish allies will prove to dilute the NMA's abilities. Turenne might win purely because Cromwell's forces are too mixed. A pure NMA force with pure NMA cavalry would probably do much better.

Besides, Cromwell is used to fighting a larger enemy force, though obviously Turenne's forces will undoubtedly be more effective than the Royalists. In a fair fight it would be pretty matched.
 
The 6,000 troops in Flanders were all Civil War Veterans. Assuming the 6,000 infantry are the SAME 6,000 as per the actual battle, then they are likely to perform well. We're not talking green recruits here, Veterans who have the NMA techniques down to a science.

Like I said, not knowing enough about Turenne and his troops I can't say who is stronger, but I do know that the NMA forces will put up a good fight.

As OP states, Cromwell has the high ground, this will be very useful.

Though I agree a mixed cavalry group plus weaker French/Spanish allies will prove to dilute the NMA's abilities. Turenne might win purely because Cromwell's forces are too mixed. A pure NMA force with pure NMA cavalry would probably do much better.

Besides, Cromwell is used to fighting a larger enemy force, though obviously Turenne's forces will undoubtedly be more effective than the Royalists. In a fair fight it would be pretty matched.

Not fair to Cromwell. His infantry troops were in no way a match for seasoned vets of 30 years wars/Spanish wars.
And he is given not enough cavalry which was arguably what was equal to the best on the Continent in this period, while being put against (arguably, but supported by people like Napoleon, so that's respectable opinion) the best French general in this period (he also beat Conde in face-off when he sided with Spanish so Turenne is the best in France back then).
 
Not fair to Cromwell. His infantry troops were in no way a match for seasoned vets of 30 years wars/Spanish wars.
And he is given not enough cavalry which was arguably what was equal to the best on the Continent in this period, while being put against (arguably, but supported by people like Napoleon, so that's respectable opinion) the best French general in this period (he also beat Conde in face-off when he sided with Spanish so Turenne is the best in France back then).

Agreed, he was more a cavalry commander. Then again, Cromwell would never lead a force as OP describes in the situation.

I think a lot would depend on when and where. A French assault on Cromwell leading a NMA force in the UK would probably skew in Cromwell's favour, if only due to knowledge of terrain. Equally a Commonwealth force attacking French forces lead by Turenne in France would clearly be a Turenne win.

Assuming some neutral battle where neither side was fighting on home soil, with even armies that make the best of their respective skills... I don't know.
 
So... a nominal commander, whose forte, when he commanded the troops personally, was the use of cavalry and not infantry, and having to tolerate the same shite as Conde had... this VS is screwed up.
 

perfectgeneral

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Blake as a surprise late entry

Turenne and his forces are said to be on open beach. The frigates open up and bombard them. Cromwell will not be surprised by manoeuvre.

My vote is for Cromwell.
 
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