WI Troy had survived?

From the Iliad, Homer tells us of the great Trojan War. All I am asking is, what would happen if:

A) Paris never takes Helen home, because Hector refuses to taker
B) The Greeks lose in their initial invasion and are pushed back into the sea
C) The Trojans refuse to take the horse, and instead, burn it.
 
Assuming the historical scenario which was basically a punitive raid by an alliance of Achaean chiefs against the Hittite tributary city-state of Wilusa?

Then not much happens- the deeds of the campaign don't get immortalised as epics and something else does.
 

Germaniac

Donor
Well, really a profound impact on our culture. The Iliad and Odyssey are extremely important cultural objects and are pillars of classical knowledge.
 
Well, really a profound impact on our culture. The Iliad and Odyssey are extremely important cultural objects and are pillars of classical knowledge.

Of course, this all assumes that some other event of the late Mycenaean period isn't seized upon as the basis of another epic cycle which would fill the same role.
 

Keenir

Banned
Of course, this all assumes that some other event of the late Mycenaean period isn't seized upon as the basis of another epic cycle which would fill the same role.

which is entirely possible, given that Troy was burned to the ground at least seven times.
 
But... But... I go to school in Troy!

BUT only once was it recorded into legend.

Yeah, but if that one time wasn't recorded, why couldn't another time? I mean, it wouldn't make that much sense for two epic cycles to be formed around events that were more or less the same.

And, ultimately, I don't really think it would effect our culture that much. It would be a shame to lose the epics, but on their own, they're certainly not the basis for modern culture. If the entire Greek civilization was lost, I'd buy it, but one, probably replaceable cycle?
 
But... But... I go to school in Troy!

Yeah, Millawanda, or Apasa, New York* doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it. :D

*For any who don't understand the reference, Millawanda and Apasa were other cities in Asia Minor attacked historically by Ahhiyawa, which most scholars equate with Mycenaean Greece.
 
Because of it's strategic position, from a naval perspective, an intact Troy might have become part of the Athenian Empire in the 5th century BC. This could have tipped the balance of power and resulted in an Athenian victory in the Peloponnesian War. Just imagine Athens continuing to dominate the Eastern Mediterranean for centuries. No Alexander the Great, no Roman Empire*. The history of western civilisation could be profoundly different.

*Legend has it that Rome was founded by a Trojan called Aeneas who fled Troy after it was sacked by the Greeks. In this scenario, Troy is not sacked so he stays put.
 
Yeah, Millawanda, or Apasa, New York* doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it. :D

*For any who don't understand the reference, Millawanda and Apasa were other cities in Asia Minor attacked historically by Ahhiyawa, which most scholars equate with Mycenaean Greece.

And "I'll take a pack of lubricated Millawandans" doesn't either. ;)
 
I posted a thread similar to this a long while ago as a DBWI Achilles not being in the war. It only got as far a the epic being named the Hektoriad, Aeneas founding a Rome analogue as a Trojan colony, and the Greek survivors under Odysseus finally settling in Carthage (with the assumption he shacks up with Queen Dido like he did with every other woman he met in the Odyssey).
 
I once had a crazy world map where Troy was a city state within a survivng Byzantine Empire.

I'd post it but Krall would eat me
 
Because of it's strategic position, from a naval perspective, an intact Troy might have become part of the Athenian Empire in the 5th century BC. This could have tipped the balance of power and resulted in an Athenian victory in the Peloponnesian War. Just imagine Athens continuing to dominate the Eastern Mediterranean for centuries. No Alexander the Great, no Roman Empire*. The history of western civilisation could be profoundly different.

*Legend has it that Rome was founded by a Trojan called Aeneas who fled Troy after it was sacked by the Greeks. In this scenario, Troy is not sacked so he stays put.

Those same legends also say that the British celts are descended of Aeneas. Maybe European civilization past Greece was just butteflyed away, and only Persian, Hindu, and Chinese culture go on to dominate the world? I mean, the epics of Homer are what inspired Alexander the Great to become a conqueror, a hero, as he was supposedly descended of Achilles and Heracles. Without the pan-hellenism that was in part a result of the epics, maybe Greek culture is a small fringe that is eventually absorbed into Persia?
 
I mean, the epics of Homer are what inspired Alexander the Great to become a conqueror, a hero, as he was supposedly descended of Achilles and Heracles.

hmm, wasn't the Troyan war seen as the end to the time of legends. Thus explaining to later greeks why they didn't bump into gods and minotaurs and whatnot all of the time. Thus making it easier for these later greeks to accept that all those old stories were real.
Now, without the Iliad, no 'end to the time of legends', the legends are just seen as stories, the gods become more abstract. Alexander goes 'Meh' and just stays home and raises horses. Actual fighting of wars becomes rarer, diplomatic manouvering replacing it.
(oooh, did I just make a machivellan ancient greece?)

ok ok, we're entering the realm of creative writing here.
 

Germaniac

Donor
Without Aeneas Rome had no connection to the ancient cultures. Thus no Rome. Thus no Roman Republic, Thus No Roman Empire, Thus no Modern Europe. We have basically followed in the footsteps of our predecessors and haven' progressed much.
 
Well, really a profound impact on our culture. The Iliad and Odyssey are extremely important cultural objects and are pillars of classical knowledge.


Germaniac,

Some other event would have been immortalized instead and the world would have an alt-Iliad and alt-Odyssey instead.

All the cultural mechanisms were in place before the raid or war or whatever it was. We shouldn't confuse subject of those epics with the need for, construction of, and survival of the epics themselves.


Bill
 
IIRC the destruction of Troy was pre Dark Ages, So Troy would have fallen to the Barbarians, then been rebuilt afterwards as a Greek City.
Troy would be the Premier City in Greek Anatolia, and helped push a increased Greek colonization of the Black Sea/Crimea.
 
Top