WI Treachery at Mers El Kebir 1940

nbcman

Donor
Is there any reason to believe it would go any better than the described attack?
Probably about the same or better since the strike against Scharnhorst was intercepted by German fighters which caused the loss of 8 Skuas.

On 13 June, Ark Royal launched fifteen Skua dive bombers; German fighters intercepted the attackers and shot eight of them down. The other seven made it past the air defenses and attacked Scharnhorst, but only scored one hit, and the bomb failed to detonate

There may be air cover if the action was close to shore as the French aircraft did shoot down a Skua that was supporting Swordfish that was laying mines outside the harbor. Also, the French ships that escaped the OTL Attack were attacked by aircraft from Ark Royal. The French shot down two Swordfish when escaping the area.
 
Motives... France and Germany are at peace if a bitter one at that. Peace with Britain as well.
The British ultimatum then is a declaration of war just like Pearl Harbor was. It’s totally reasonable to fight back as they did ineffectually iotl. Why would it be unreasonable to try to be cunning and escape?
 
Motives... France and Germany are at peace if a bitter one at that. Peace with Britain as well.
The British ultimatum then is a declaration of war just like Pearl Harbor was. It’s totally reasonable to fight back as they did ineffectually iotl. Why would it be unreasonable to try to be cunning and escape?

But Britain arent attacking in this scenario, they have accepted to defang the French fleet and move it to a neutral so I really dont understand why the French fleet turns hostile. Also I cant see see Germany agreeing to such a move, if I was Germany Id assume the French fleet would defect or Britain would just seize the ships once they left. Everyone is acting really counter intuitive to their own interests in this scenario.
 
Why would the French ships be armed at all? If they are being removed as a threat theyd probably be disarmed

To my knowledge, the British didn't demand that, just that they go someplace where the Germans couldn't possibly take them over. In fact, fighting with the British was one of the alternatives offered.


but also I don't understand why you'd attack the British fleet in transit? If its because you don't want to leave... then why leave in the first place?

Well, notwithstanding their inferiority, being able to maneuver, or even possibly get away at night, would be better than being sitting ducks in a harbor.

I don't see what the French motive is here. It would be suicide. At best they'd be at sea with the Royal Navy hunting them with no chance for resupply. At worse they are sunk. Why are they attacking again?

I'd assume they don't want to go very far from their base under orders of a foreign government. It might be suicide but I don't think we can be sure. Even under the circumstances of the OTL Strasbourg made it to Toulon.
 

nbcman

Donor
To my knowledge, the British didn't demand that, just that they go someplace where the Germans couldn't possibly take them over. In fact, fighting with the British was one of the alternatives offered.

Well, notwithstanding their inferiority, being able to maneuver, or even possibly get away at night, would be better than being sitting ducks in a harbor.

I'd assume they don't want to go very far from their base under orders of a foreign government. It might be suicide but I don't think we can be sure. Even under the circumstances of the OTL Strasbourg made it to Toulon.

No, that is not what happened. This is what the ultimatum said as relayed by Admiral Somerville:

It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers el Kebir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives; (a) Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans. (b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment. If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile. (c) Alternatively, if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans lest they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West IndiesMartinique for instance—where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated. If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have orders from His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German or Italian hands

Admiral Somerville only indicated that the RN would 'use whatever force' against the French ships to keep them out of enemy hands if the French didn't follow one of the 3 alternatives or the French could sink their own ships-and none of the 3 alternatives described fighting between the RN and the MN.
 
A key point in the Alternatives offered to Gensoul was

c) ... then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West IndiesMartinique for instance—where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.

my bold

The RN would not have allowed Gensoul to sail any where with full crews under C
and therefore a betrayal as OP cannot happen ...

Gensoul might have said he was taking option A i.e. joining the British
. . and attempted a fight then but that would not have worked either.

iOTL He was in fact preparing for battle overnight and delaying for time
I don't know if he actually planned an Option A betrayal but he was certainly already betraying someone
... not the British but his own superiors.

In his reports to Darlan by radio, he completely ommitted Option C
... despite the fact that it complied with his existing orders..
effectively editing the British terms to be "surrender or die".

Unfortunately for him, the British had the French codes he was using and read the lies he was sending
They declined to offer their back for him to stab and preempted whatever he secretly planned

So, in this case Further French Treachery would gain nothing.
 
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