WI Treachery at Mers El Kebir 1940

At the start of July 1940 the British, fearing the Axis would takeover the French fleet, delivered an ultimatum to the part of the fleet at Mers El Kebir in Algeria. The French were given a few options: sail with the British and fight the axis, scuttle(?) or go to the West Indies or possibly the US. The two sides couldn't agree and the British bombarded the French ships.
What if Admiral Gensoul had pretended to go along with the West Indies option and sailed out with Provence, Bretagne, Dunkerque and his other vessels, but then suddenly attacked the British fleet (which I presume would've escorted Gensoul's force to make sure it went where it was supposed to). Would the French fleet have stood a chance against Hood, Valiant, Ark Royal etc?
 
Really doubt RN heavies would have stayed in sneak attack range of the French. A couple destroyers to monitor their course and radio updates is all that is required in close. The RN BB and CVs would stay quite a ways off.

The perfect situation for the British would be for the French ships to leave Mers El Kebir with just enough fuel to reach the mid-Atlantic after a high speed run out of the Med. Then they rely on RN tankers to get them to the Caribbean.
No way the French will start something far from port with near empty fuel bunkers.
 

nbcman

Donor
At the start of July 1940 the British, fearing the Axis would takeover the French fleet, delivered an ultimatum to the part of the fleet at Mers El Kebir in Algeria. The French were given a few options: sail with the British and fight the axis, scuttle(?) or go to the West Indies or possibly the US. The two sides couldn't agree and the British bombarded the French ships.
What if Admiral Gensoul had pretended to go along with the West Indies option and sailed out with Provence, Bretagne, Dunkerque and his other vessels, but then suddenly attacked the British fleet (which I presume would've escorted Gensoul's force to make sure it went where it was supposed to). Would the French fleet have stood a chance against Hood, Valiant, Ark Royal etc?
Why would the French fleet decide to attack the British fleet at all without provocation? I can understand if the French fleet responded after the British attacked but for the French to attack would break the terms of the Franco-German Armistice. It makes no sense other than if there was ASB mind control to create this conflict.
 
Really doubt RN heavies would have stayed in sneak attack range of the French. A couple destroyers to monitor their course and radio updates is all that is required in close. The RN BB and CVs would stay quite a ways off.

But what if the French made a dash for Toulon, maybe starting at night? IIRC one or more ships actually made it even under the circumstances of the OTL.
 
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Why would the French fleet decide to attack the British fleet at all without provocation?

Because they don't want to go far from home under threat of attack or fight what was now somebody else's battle.

can understand if the French fleet responded after the British attacked but for the French to attack would break the terms of the Franco-German Armistice.

Lol, I don't think the Germans would be too pissed if the French attacked the British, or at least double crossed them by running for Toulon after appearing to agree to go to Martinique or some other far away place. And I'd assume it would be a breach of the Franco-German armistice for the French fleet to fight for Britain, or be under its control.
 
The French feared the Germans seizing their fleet more than they feared the Brits. Moving the fleet to Toulon means increasing the risk of losing it.
They could make the run, but why would they? If anything I think they would run the Toulon fleet to North Africa. That gets them further from the Nazis and concentrates their firepower if the RN does attack.
 
At the start of July 1940 the British, fearing the Axis would takeover the French fleet, delivered an ultimatum to the part of the fleet at Mers El Kebir in Algeria. The French were given a few options: sail with the British and fight the axis, scuttle(?) or go to the West Indies or possibly the US. The two sides couldn't agree and the British bombarded the French ships.
What if Admiral Gensoul had pretended to go along with the West Indies option and sailed out with Provence, Bretagne, Dunkerque and his other vessels, but then suddenly attacked the British fleet (which I presume would've escorted Gensoul's force to make sure it went where it was supposed to). Would the French fleet have stood a chance against Hood, Valiant, Ark Royal etc?

"Commence, Commence, Commence"

Would probably be the only order that would have to be given by the British ships to their crews
 
The French feared the Germans seizing their fleet more than they feared the Brits. Moving the fleet to Toulon means increasing the risk of losing it.

At the time southern France wasn't yet occupied, so the risk didn't appear very great.

They could make the run, but why would they? If anything I think they would run the Toulon fleet to North Africa. That gets them further from the Nazis and concentrates their firepower if the RN does attack.

The fleet was supposed to be laid up in home ports. I don't think Vichy or Petain would've done anything to upset the Germans, as long as they kept their part of the deal.
 

GarethC

Donor
So even old ships like Hood and Valiant were that much better than the French ships?
Yes.
Bretagne and Provence were pre-WW1 ships, so even older than Resolution and Valiant.
Dunkerque and Strasbourg were designed as cruiser-killers to hunt Deutschland-class CAs, not quite battleships.

Neither the old 9.8" belt of the Bretagnes nor the 9" belt of the Dunkerques resisted the 15" shells of the British, with both Bretagne and Dunkerque losing engine rooms to shells that penetrated the main belts.
The 13.4" shells of the Bretagnes and the 13" of the Dunkerques would penetrate the 12" belt of Hood and the 13" of the other two BBs at close enough ranges, but remain less potent if the British can keep the geometry away from a right-angle
 
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I'm guessing there would likely be some British observers on the ships as well as the escort, (but yeah I like the restricted fuel plan as well)
 
Why would the French fleet decide to attack the British fleet at all without provocation? I can understand if the French fleet responded after the British attacked but for the French to attack would break the terms of the Franco-German Armistice. It makes no sense other than if there was ASB mind control to create this conflict.

Just moving the French fleet from a designated Armistice port with out German permission violates the terms.
 
So even old ships like Hood and Valiant were that much better than the French ships?

It's important to note that the old French battleships (Provence and Bretagne) are not the equivalent of the Queen Elizabeths, let alone the Hoods. They are the equivalent to the (Scrapped) Orion class. Yes, they received updates, but they are completely outmatched ship to ship by the Queens, R class and Hood.
 
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At the time southern France wasn't yet occupied, so the risk didn't appear very great.



The fleet was supposed to be laid up in home ports. I don't think Vichy or Petain would've done anything to upset the Germans, as long as they kept their part of the deal.
Toulon was only a few hours drive from the occupied zone. As for home ports, legally the algerian coast was part of the french metropole. Its ports were therefore home ports.
 
At the time southern France wasn't yet occupied, so the risk didn't appear very great.

....

Thing is what ever the French of German government may have said at the time, it's done deal Toulon is going to come under Nazi influence especially if it comes with capital ships.

That's kind of the issue with this whole episode, what ever Admiral Gensoul was thinking or believed to be the case, there's just no way in hell those ship aren't either leaving under a British or Free French flag to become part of the allied forces, or remanded to some neutral third party of British choosing, or sunk. Shitty though the end result was.
 
Thing is what ever the French of German government may have said at the time, it's done deal Toulon is going to come under Nazi influence especially if it comes with capital ships.

Of course Vichy was under Nazi influence, but that didn't mean the Germans had a good chance of seizing the ships. IIRC, Blair wrote that they approached the port "with olive branches extended." And local defenses held them up long enough for the fleet to be scuttled.

That's kind of the issue with this whole episode, what ever Admiral Gensoul was thinking or believed to be the case, there's just no way in hell those ship aren't either leaving under a British or Free French flag to become part of the allied forces, or remanded to some neutral third party of British choosing, or sunk. Shitty though the end result was.

You guys are probably right but I don't know if we can be certain. Gensoul might've feigned compliance with some British alternative and then made a dash for Toulon as soon as darkness fell (after he got underway) so Ark Royal's planes couldn't fly and shooting would've been harder, especially if he also made smoke. Maybe he also could've used his destroyers to make a sudden attack on a major British vessel or two.
 
Why would the French ships be armed at all? If they are being removed as a threat theyd probably be disarmed but also I don't understand why you'd attack the British fleet in transit? If its because you don't want to leave... then why leave in the first place? I don't see what the French motive is here. It would be suicide. At best they'd be at sea with the Royal Navy hunting them with no chance for resupply. At worse they are sunk. Why are they attacking again?
 

nbcman

Donor
Of course Vichy was under Nazi influence, but that didn't mean the Germans had a good chance of seizing the ships. IIRC, Blair wrote that they approached the port "with olive branches extended." And local defenses held them up long enough for the fleet to be scuttled.



You guys are probably right but I don't know if we can be certain. Gensoul might've feigned compliance with some British alternative and then made a dash for Toulon as soon as darkness fell (after he got underway) so Ark Royal's planes couldn't fly and shooting would've been harder, especially if he also made smoke. Maybe he also could've used his destroyers to make a sudden attack on a major British vessel or two.

They may have tried but it is hard to make a 'dash' with WW1-era dreads that max out at 20 kts. Additionally, Ark Royal made night attacks off Norway against Scharnhorst about 2 weeks prior to Mers El Kebir.

The last evacuation convoy left Narvik on 9 June. Before the British ships could withdraw, a raid on Trondheim located Scharnhorst. An attack by Ark Royal's Skuas took place at midnight on 13 June.[46] The attack was a disaster: the escort destroyers Antelope and Electra collided while Ark Royal was launching aircraft in fog and returned to England for repairs, eight of the fifteen attacking Skuas were shot down, while Scharnhorst escaped damage.

So the British theoretically could have made a night carrier attack if needed.
 
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