WI: Trastamara Spain

According to the book, Philip the Bold by Richard Vaughan, John II of France invested his son Philip in 1383 with the duchy of Burgundy. The duchy was given to Philip without the condition normally stated in similar grants that the fief should return to the crown in the absence at any time of male heirs. So by the laws of France, Mary and her heirs were entitled to inherit the duchy of Burgundy.
 
Margaret of Austria was Juan's wife, not his mother. As for Savoy, Juan's survival could also butterfly the death of Duke Philibert's first wife, Yolande Louise.

I'd also say Juan would have his hands full with the New World. The last 'Spanish' monarch to try and claim the Imperial title was Alfonso X of Castile from 1256 to 1275. And since we never read about Holy Roman Emperor Alfonso I, you can guess how well that went.

Also there's a reason, the Prince-Electors preferred Charles V over Francis I and Maximilian II over Philip II, they were considered the more 'native' candidates. Both Alfonso of Castille and Richard of Cornwell contributed to the fact, that the Prince-Electors did recognize, that the monarch of the Empire needed a decent powerbase in the Empire, provided said monarch would respect their privileges. Rudolf I of Habsburg (btw he was count Rudolf IV of Habsburg)was elected King of the Romans in 1273, Henry VII of Luxembourg (also count Henry VII of Luxembourg) was elected king of the Romans in 1308.
Juan joining Francis I of France and Henry VIII of England would only benefit the Prince-Electors and Bankers like the Fuggers would need to finance everything. However given the Trastamara-Habsburg alliance, I suspect that they won't intrude each other's sphere of influence, unless they would inherit the other.
 
According to the book, Philip the Bold by Richard Vaughan, John II of France invested his son Philip in 1383 with the duchy of Burgundy. The duchy was given to Philip without the condition normally stated in similar grants that the fief should return to the crown in the absence at any time of male heirs. So by the laws of France, Mary and her heirs were entitled to inherit the duchy of Burgundy.

That would mean that the house of Valois-Burgundy had similar inheritance rights as the Capetian house of Burgundy. In 1032 King Henry I of France ceded the duchy of Burgundy in a peace settlement to his brother Robert the Old, a conflict Henry and Robert initially had with their father king Robert II of France; that a division of the inheritance and not what later would develop into an appanage.
 
Considering France isn't encircled by the Habsburgs in this scenario, is it possible that there's less friction between France/HRE and France/Spain, or is it most likely that they're still at loggerheads over various things - Milan, Burgundy (for the Habsburgs), Naples (for the Trastamaras)? That said, how likely is it that Juan III puts his name in the hat for the imperial title? He is half-Habsburg after all, which is more than François I and Henry VIII could both say. Also, who takes his mother's place (I'm assuming she won't remarry) as duchess of Savoy and would the post of gubernatrix of the Low Countries need to be filled or can Philipp divide his time between Ghent and Vienna?

As Byzantine sais, if Juan III is inteligent, he would remember how well played this idea to his ancestor Alfonso X, and as said, he would have his hand full with many other affairs. Also, in this scenario, and without the events that followed Charles I/V coronation, the Cortes would be probably more powerful than IOTL, and perhaps even more than ever depending on the political correlation of forces Juan inherits, so such an idea would be recieved with a big "no" by them. It's interesting to think in the political development of Spain without the Habsburgs, though the proccess of centralization of power was well started by the Catholic Kings,they never dared to defy the Cortes as Charles did, and gathered part of their support in the cities. Maybe for Juan III, the overpowered landowning nobles from the south would be a bigger preocupation than the budgetary constraints impossed by the cities.
 
Margaret of Austria was Juan's wife, not his mother. As for Savoy, Juan's survival could also butterfly the death of Duke Philibert's first wife, Yolande Louise.

I'd also say Juan would have his hands full with the New World. The last 'Spanish' monarch to try and claim the Imperial title was Alfonso X of Castile from 1256 to 1275. And since we never read about Holy Roman Emperor Alfonso I, you can guess how well that went.

Juan III is the son of Juan and Margarethe's union, not a surviving Juan. And fair enough as to Violante Ludovica, although let's assume that she still dies on schedule.

So Juan won't be making a play in the Imperial Elections, which is fair. Would Philipp (who survives in this scenario) be a strong enough candidate to stand alone? Or would he still need to bribe the electors? As to Juan's reign, how might that look, if we let it run until around the 1540s/1550s? Spain maybe only meddles in Europe when it concerns her? Attempts to conquer North Africa? Or say hi, muchas gracias for the money to the Americas, and continue spending it on Europe as OTL?
 
As Byzantine sais, if Juan III is inteligent, he would remember how well played this idea to his ancestor Alfonso X, and as said, he would have his hand full with many other affairs. Also, in this scenario, and without the events that followed Charles I/V coronation, the Cortes would be probably more powerful than IOTL, and perhaps even more than ever depending on the political correlation of forces Juan inherits, so such an idea would be recieved with a big "no" by them. It's interesting to think in the political development of Spain without the Habsburgs, though the proccess of centralization of power was well started by the Catholic Kings,they never dared to defy the Cortes as Charles did, and gathered part of their support in the cities. Maybe for Juan III, the overpowered landowning nobles from the south would be a bigger preocupation than the budgetary constraints impossed by the cities.

Okay, slower centralization of government than OTL, although would Juan be so desirous to simply openly defy the Cortes? What of the revolt of the Germanies? And how would he deal with balancing Aragon and Castile's spheres of influence, could he meld them into a Spanish state (a la Felipe V) or would they simply continue to hobble along as Castile & Leon, Aragon, Valencia, Majorca, etc? The overpowerful landowners, he'd have to break them at some point (Henry VII and Louis XI had done this in England and France, so Juan could follow their lead), so how might he go about doing so?
 
Okay, slower centralization of government than OTL, although would Juan be so desirous to simply openly defy the Cortes? What of the revolt of the Germanies? And how would he deal with balancing Aragon and Castile's spheres of influence, could he meld them into a Spanish state (a la Felipe V) or would they simply continue to hobble along as Castile & Leon, Aragon, Valencia, Majorca, etc? The overpowerful landowners, he'd have to break them at some point (Henry VII and Louis XI had done this in England and France, so Juan could follow their lead), so how might he go about doing so?
 
Something I'm wondering is how Spain in this scenario, with a native son instead of a foreigner as king would deal with the first rumblings of the Reformation when it hits? Obviously the Inquisition is still a force, but OTL the kings of Spain in the 16th century tended to basically have the popes dangling from their belt - the nickname for the Pope in England in Elizabeth's reign was the king of Spain's chaplain.
 
Well since the King of Spain isn't also the suzerain of a bunch of heretics he wouldn't take active role there, but a more moral and financial one, after all the Conquest of the Americas will strengthen Catholic fervor in Spain.

The Pope being reduced to a Spanish lackey is more a consequence of Charles' sack of Rome, which wouldn't happen, that said Spain will be one of the leading Catholic powers (thanks to American wealth), so you could see the Pope being kinda pro-Spain, but with a still-existent strong French faction.
 
Well, until Margarethe dies, depending on her relationship with her son, Spanish policy would be anti-French - given her own anti-French views. Although OTL, François I attempted to betrothe his eldest daughter (Louise/Charlotte) to Charles V, so we might see a Franco-Spanish match occur earlier here.
 
It could be interesting to see how Spain would develop with the toss-up of the regency between Isabel's death and Juan III majority between Fernando and Margarethe. She, most likely, will lean into a more pro-Burgundian policy for Spain, and would no doubt be disgusted by her father-in-law's treating with the French. The Castilians might fear Fernando squandering Castilian gold on Aragonese ventures and support Margarethe solely for that reason.

Also, I wonder if the Habsburgs could successfully hold onto Württemberg in this scenario?
 
The general gist I'm picking up here is that Philipp would focus more on the Low Countries, he'd live longer, the Netherlands would get an earlier start on colonialism and that the Habsburgs were very interested in Milan. Follow-up question, because he doesn't rule in right of his wife, might Philipp still lock his Spanish spouse up (I read somewhere that OTL her incarceration was largely schemed between her father and her husband, who wanted power for themselves), or does he politely tolerate her "melancholia"?

But back to Spain, how does this develop? I saw on a thread about Isabel of Aragon having a son with her first husband, that Mary Tudor would be considered a good bride for him - in that Henry VII would try to get around Fernando II that way. But it also suggested Claude de France, if the French king should have a son, and Eleonore of Austria. So how might Spain go further without having to support an "Imperial" court?

Considering France isn't encircled by the Habsburgs in this scenario, is it possible that there's less friction between France/HRE and France/Spain, or is it most likely that they're still at loggerheads over various things - Milan, Burgundy (for the Habsburgs), Naples (for the Trastamaras)? That said, how likely is it that Juan III puts his name in the hat for the imperial title? He is half-Habsburg after all, which is more than François I and Henry VIII could both say. Also, who takes his mother's place (I'm assuming she won't remarry) as duchess of Savoy and would the post of gubernatrix of the Low Countries need to be filled or can Philipp divide his time between Ghent and Vienna?

This was an idea I had that kind of was an offshoot of my Yorkist-Lancastrian TL:


Ferdinand II, King of Aragon [1479-1516] (1452-1516) m: Isabel I, Queen of Castile [1474-1504] (1451-1504)

1) Isabel (1470-1498.) m: 1490 Affonso, Prince of Portugal (1475-1491); 2m: 1497 Manuel I, King of Portugal [1495-] (1469-)

a) Miguel de la Paz (1498-1500)
2) Juan III, King of Castile [1504-], King of Aragon [1516-] (1475-) m: 1490 Anne of York (1475-)

a) Juan, Prince de los Asturias (1492-)​

b) Isabel (1497-)​


c) Fernando, duque de Villena (1498-.)​


d) Alfonso, duque de Penafiel (1502-)​

e) Ana (1503-)​

3) Juan, duque de (1478-1497) m: 1497 Giovanna of Naples (1478-.)

4) Juana, Queen of Castile [1504-] (1479-) m: 1496 Philipp of Austria, Duke of Burgundy [1471-] (1478-.)

a) Karl, Archduke of Austria (1499-)​

b) Friedrich, Archduke of Austria (1502-)​

c) Eleonore (1503-)​

d) Isabella (1506-)​

e) Marie (1508-.)​

f) Katharina (1510-)​

5) Maria (1482-) m: 1500 Manuel I, King of Portugal [1495-] (1469-)

a) João, Prince of Portugal (1501-)​

b) Isabel (1504-)​

c) Beatriz (1505-)​

d) Luiz, duque de Beja (1506-)​

e) Fernando (1508-1512)​

f) Afonso, duque de Guarda (1510-)

g) Henrique, Cardinal-Infante (1511-)​

h) Maria (1513-1513)​

i) Duarte, duque de Guimaraes (1515-)​

j) Antonio (1516)​

6) Ana [twin of Maria] (1482-1482)

7) Stillborn Son (1483)

8) Catalina (1485-) m: 1501 Edward VI, King of England [1511-] (1484-)*

a) Stillborn Child (1502)​

b) Edward, Duke of Cornwall (1503-1503)​

c) Elizabeth (1505-)​

d) Mary (1506-)​

e) Stillborn Child (1507)​

f) Henry, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Earl of Chester (1509-)
*Nephew of Anne of York, son of Edward V and his Lancastrian wife, Anne of Lancaster - daughter of Edward of Middleham and Anne Neville

How might Europe progress if the Catholic monarchs have five male-line grandchildren? Spain is clearly spared Habsburg rule for a while, but it shakes up several other matches. Thoughts?
 
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How might Europe progress if the Catholic monarchs have five male-line grandchildren? Spain is clearly spared Habsburg rule for a while, but it shakes up several other matches. Thoughts?

I like it, although, I think that unfortunately those grandchildren are most likely going to marry cousins, I could see Ana going to TTL Karl V (for instance, unless there's a TTL Mary Tudor equivalent for the duke of Burgundy to marry). Juan most likely marries either Anne d'Albret or Germaine de Foix, and the Spanish kingdoms annex Navarre that way. Isabel is a bit of a wild card, since she's older than TTL Karl V/Joao III, but will still have a larger dowry than Ana. As to the younger sons - maybe one of them ends up in the church (I could see Fernando and Isabel being pious enough to insist on that).
 
I like it, although, I think that unfortunately those grandchildren are most likely going to marry cousins, I could see Ana going to TTL Karl V (for instance, unless there's a TTL Mary Tudor equivalent for the duke of Burgundy to marry). Juan most likely marries either Anne d'Albret or Germaine de Foix, and the Spanish kingdoms annex Navarre that way. Isabel is a bit of a wild card, since she's older than TTL Karl V/Joao III, but will still have a larger dowry than Ana. As to the younger sons - maybe one of them ends up in the church (I could see Fernando and Isabel being pious enough to insist on that).

I'm not sure about such a match for TTL Charles/Karel V. TTL Habsburgs will be just as interested, TTL probably more, in acquiring Bohemia & Hungary; without the Spanish kingdoms ITTL, such a match, if needed, will be considered for the senior male heir, TTL Charles/Karel V. ITTL it would not make sense to let these kingdoms go to a junior line of the dynasty. If that isn't available, then a French or English match will also be considered serious options.
 
I'm not sure about such a match for TTL Charles/Karel V. TTL Habsburgs will be just as interested, TTL probably more, in acquiring Bohemia & Hungary; without the Spanish kingdoms ITTL, such a match, if needed, will be considered for the senior male heir, TTL Charles/Karel V. ITTL it would not make sense to let these kingdoms go to a junior line of the dynasty. If that isn't available, then a French or English match will also be considered serious options.

So Karl V to Anna of Bohemia and Friedrich to someone else? Maybe a Polish princess (if there is one) or who would you suggest?
 
So Karl V to Anna of Bohemia and Friedrich to someone else? Maybe a Polish princess (if there is one) or who would you suggest?

That depends, what happens with the duchy of Milan? If the Habsburgs manage to acquire Milan, then one of the conditions could be, that it's granted to a younger son/grandson, in this case Frederick (TTL Ferdinand) and he marries a French Princess as a part of the peace treaty. The Trastamaras and Habsburgs had a conflict with house of Valois, so Frederick and a sister could be required to marry into the house of Valois as a part of any peace treaty. Something similar could be required from a Spanish Infante and/or Infanta.
 
That depends, what happens with the duchy of Milan? If the Habsburgs manage to acquire Milan, then one of the conditions could be, that it's granted to a younger son/grandson, in this case Frederick (TTL Ferdinand) and he marries a French Princess as a part of the peace treaty. The Trastamaras and Habsburgs had a conflict with house of Valois, so Frederick and a sister could be required to marry into the house of Valois as a part of any peace treaty. Something similar could be required from a Spanish Infante and/or Infanta.

OTL, Isabella, Princess of Bari, Dowager Duchess of Milan, dangled her daughter Bona (after Ippolita's death, since Ippolita was betrothed to the duke of Calabria) to whichever of his grandsons Fernando el Catolico nominated to succeed him in Italy. So, perhaps Bona gets married to a younger one of Juan and Anne's kids (assuming that everything is still sort of developing on schedule and there's nothing wacky like Bona marrying Charles VIII/Louis XII or something), she's closer in age to alt-Charles V, and then TTL-Friedrich can marry Anne of Hungary... England is out as a marriage partner for Spain, since they've already got two English marriages - Juan's match to Anne and Catalina's match to Edward; though I think if Margarethe of Austria has still married Charles VIII (although where would Anne de Bretagne marry then?), their kids might do well on the marriage market for Spanish infantes or Habsburg archdukes...
 
OTL, Isabella, Princess of Bari, Dowager Duchess of Milan, dangled her daughter Bona (after Ippolita's death, since Ippolita was betrothed to the duke of Calabria) to whichever of his grandsons Fernando el Catolico nominated to succeed him in Italy. So, perhaps Bona gets married to a younger one of Juan and Anne's kids (assuming that everything is still sort of developing on schedule and there's nothing wacky like Bona marrying Charles VIII/Louis XII or something), she's closer in age to alt-Charles V, and then TTL-Friedrich can marry Anne of Hungary... England is out as a marriage partner for Spain, since they've already got two English marriages - Juan's match to Anne and Catalina's match to Edward; though I think if Margarethe of Austria has still married Charles VIII (although where would Anne de Bretagne marry then?), their kids might do well on the marriage market for Spanish infantes or Habsburg archdukes...

Closer in age isn't that big a deal for dynastic politics, Charles and Frederick will marry according to their rank, Anne of Bohemia & Hungary and otherwise a French or an English Princess or a Spanish Infanta seem all more likely choices for Charles. IMHO Anne is the most obvious choice from a Habsburg point of view, which means that Frederick's marriage might be determined by international diplomacy, as a way to resolve the conflict with the house of Valois. The house of Trastamara was opposed to the French claims on Naples, whereas for the Habsburgs French claims on Milan were not acceptable. Milan might also end up with a younger French Prince and a Habsburg bride, since the duchy of Milan is an Imperial fief, though I'm sure the deal I proposed in my previous post (Frederick as duke of Milan with a French princess as his bride) would have been preferred by the Habsburgs though.
 
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