WI: Toshiro Mifune accepted the role of Obi-Wan Kenobi?

The other thing to consider is that Yoda is... well... a pretty transparently racist stereotype of a Japanese sensei figure. He may not be needed in this alt version, and if there are bona fide top notch Japanese actors on board, they may not accept it as part of the film. So possibly, Yoda is human, or simply has his role merged with obi wan.
 
The other thing to consider is that Yoda is... well... a pretty transparently racist stereotype of a Japanese sensei figure. He may not be needed in this alt version, and if there are bona fide top notch Japanese actors on board, they may not accept it as part of the film. So possibly, Yoda is human, or simply has his role merged with obi wan.
How is Yoda racist?

Seriously, how have I not heard this before?
 
How is Yoda racist?

Seriously, how have I not heard this before?
I guess because to some he seems “Asian” but this is like saying the Sand People are Arab or the Star Trek Klingons appropriate Japanese or Lakota culture. I hate to be the one who sounds like a crank but some people will find anything racist. Also you do have Lucas making horrible stereotypes like the gungans, who are sadly minstrel caricatures, but Yoda isn’t that blatant. Otherwise every Star Wars character is flawed.
 
I guess because to some he seems “Asian” but this is like saying the Sand People are Arab or the Star Trek Klingons appropriate Japanese or Lakota culture. I hate to be the one who sounds like a crank but some people will find anything racist. Also you do have Lucas making horrible stereotypes like the gungans, who are sadly minstrel caricatures, but Yoda isn’t that blatant. Otherwise every Star Wars character is flawed.
Yoda’s the classic “sagely mentor with a wisdom no one else has” type that is a an archetype stretching back centuries. It’s common throughout fantasy, I’d argue especially in East Asia.
 
If Darth Vader is not Luke's father, how background story of Vader and story of Anakin Skywalker would go on prequel movies assuming that these are ever made. Probably Anakin's background would be different.
 
I guess because to some he seems “Asian” but this is like saying the Sand People are Arab or the Star Trek Klingons appropriate Japanese or Lakota culture. I hate to be the one who sounds like a crank but some people will find anything racist. Also you do have Lucas making horrible stereotypes like the gungans, who are sadly minstrel caricatures, but Yoda isn’t that blatant. Otherwise every Star Wars character is flawed.
Hes diminutive, ancient, speaks comically broken English, walks with a stoop using a staff, is of a visibly different race/species, is never opaque but talks in riddles, enjoys putting his pupils through seemingly pointless activity like carrying him around, has vague and arcane knowledge, and exists purely to train the white, blonde, blue eyed hero before dying. Luke is a white saviour archetype, who is better at the ancient arts he learns in a matter of days than the native practitioners.

Basically, yoda is a reductionist pastiche of a japanese cultural archetype. If he spoke normally, or was less of a cipher, he wouldn't be as overtly racist. If a Japanese film had a figure who was obese, tall, wore a Stetson and and kept bellowing yee haw, dang, yes siree, yankee doodle dandy, and within days turned the Japanese protagonist into the best quick draw around before dying and pressing the original declaration of independence into the protagonists hand, most American audiences would find it offensive.

The sand people, gungans, anakins slave boss, the trade federation and many others are acknowledged as borderline offensive caricatures. And whatever Lucas now says, he cast a 99.9999% white cast. We can still enjoy star wars whilst acknowledging that it replicates the biases of it's time, however unwittingly.
 
Putting that aside, as its not something people will easily change views on either way, in terms of differences to A New Hope, I agree one of the key set piece changes would be to the duel on the death star. I can see it playing out as the heroes are being pursued by a group of storm troopers, and Obi Wan stops to buy them time, and takes down a dozen troopers in a balletic flurry of sword strokes, feints, dodges and spins, before being confronted with Vader. They circle each other warily, watching for weakness, vader calling obi wan a traitor, obi wan calling vader a disappointment who chose power over honour. More storm troopers arive, and seeing no way to escape, Obi Wan smiles, asking if vader means to torture him. Vader strikes him down, a last act of respect to his old master. Maybe, givent he changes, the last kindness of a son to a father?

They escape, Luke distraught at hteloss of this newfound father figure, and seek out the rebellion. the film goes much as OTL, but as they attack the death star, lukes squadron is ambushed by an overwhelming force of tie fighters. his wingmen destroyed, luke dodges and weaves but the blaster fire comes closer and closer... until the falcon swoops in, smashing straight throught he imprial squadron, destroying them. witht he falcon as his wingman, luke makes his run, but the falcon is ablaze and malfunctioning. Han radios luke to tell him to do it, for freedom, for obi wan, fore leia, then flies stright into the defensive turret barrignt he way. the falcon explodes, and luke is temporarily in a panic, but then, remembering obi wan, he calms himself,breathing slowly, centring himself. he fires, and the missiles go intot he vents.

the next film is obviously now radically different. if lando remains, he takes han's place, btu is even mroe disreputable and mildly sleazy than Han OTL. the film follows the first films beats - the rogueish black sidekick who seemingly betrays the heroes but changes allegiance at hte last minute. At the end, he is captured by gangesters in league with the empire, and dies refusing to give up the heroes. Luke meanwhile seeks out the Yoda figure, who is now possibly human, if there is a suitable older japanese actor to play an archetypal wise sensei. instead of a swamp, he is in a part ruined temple amidst overgrown terraced fields. He teaches him focus, to control and channel his emotions, the importance of balance. Leia reveals that her father, who is alive here, is the true emperor, in hiding after he was deposed by the pretender, his brother.

ROTJ focusses on Luke seeking out his master's killer to avenge him, and to restore order tot he universe. as he is now not his dad, there is no need for him to change allegiance at the end, so their climactic duel comes as vader bars the way to the emperor's throne room aboard the new death star; their duel is long ad tense, but at the end, vader, realising how he has lost his honour and dignity, takes off his helmet, and kneels, asking Luke to do him the honour of ending his life for him. He obliges. Int he throne room, the emperor is a sort of dark version of human yoda. he tries to manipulate luke, bribe him, offer him influence and, for a moment, luke considers it, but closing his eyes, remembers his fallen master. he tells the emperor to stand down, and the emperor laughs; with a wave of his hand, his guards appear from hiding but luke, his eyes shut, focusses ont heir sound and the feel of the air and the vibrations ont he floor and dispatches them all in a single long movement. he stands before the emperor, and once more calls on him to surrender. the emperor pulls out a light staff, and they battle once more, but the emperor's rage is no match fo luke's calm, and he falls. witht he emperoro dead, luke deactivates the force field on the death star; leia tells him over hte radio she lvoes him, and begs him not to destroy himself witht he death star. he is resigned to it,however; until R2 chirps; 3PO, translating, tells himt here is an imperial escape pod hidden int he throne room, and he escapes just as the death star is destroyed, and rejoins the rebels. he and lei embrace, ad her father,t he true emperor, places herhand in lukes, and declares him his heir.
 
Hes diminutive, ancient, speaks comically broken English, walks with a stoop using a staff, is of a visibly different race/species, is never opaque but talks in riddles, enjoys putting his pupils through seemingly pointless activity like carrying him around, has vague and arcane knowledge, and exists purely to train the white, blonde, blue eyed hero before dying. Luke is a white saviour archetype, who is better at the ancient arts he learns in a matter of days than the native practitioners.
b5ddc.jpg

...I'm not even sure what to say to this beyond the above meme.

Look, this isn't a racist caricature, it's taking a lot from the works of Akira Kuorsawa. To quote a 2016 Peter Forbes article;
[George] Lucas did not only source a significant part of his Star Wars’ storyline from [Akira] Kurosawa’s flicks, but also borrowed ideas for the swashbuckling light sabre scenes by Jedis wearing long Japanese Buddhist monk-influenced robes and cloaks. The term “Jedi” itself came from the Japanese “jidai-geki” meaning period drama, while super-nasty Darth Vader’s costume and helmet were inspired by Japanese warlords’ uniform and headwear.
Yoda fits in perfectly to this mold, and he isn't a caricature.
MV5BNGEwZDQ4YmQtZWVjNy00ZjZjLWIxN2EtN2I3MTk4MzIyOWFlXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNjMxMzM3NDI@._V1_.jpg

That's a caricature.
Luminous-Beings_84f5bf9e.jpeg

That's not a caricature.

Also, Lucas drew heavily on archetypes, and the original trilogy is very much an archetypal story. So your proposed idea for an alternate Star Wars with Toshiro Mifune is... radically different from Lucas would probably have done. Heck, it's entirely possible this film would have made Mifune's reputation in America. Seriously, you expect me to believe people watched Star Wars because the entire cast was white? No, they watched it because - and this is important - it fucking ruled.
 
b5ddc.jpg

...I'm not even sure what to say to this beyond the above meme.

Look, this isn't a racist caricature, it's taking a lot from the works of Akira Kuorsawa. To quote a 2016 Peter Forbes article;

Yoda fits in perfectly to this mold, and he isn't a caricature.
MV5BNGEwZDQ4YmQtZWVjNy00ZjZjLWIxN2EtN2I3MTk4MzIyOWFlXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNjMxMzM3NDI@._V1_.jpg

That's a caricature.
Luminous-Beings_84f5bf9e.jpeg

That's not a caricature.

Also, Lucas drew heavily on archetypes, and the original trilogy is very much an archetypal story. So your proposed idea for an alternate Star Wars with Toshiro Mifune is... radically different from Lucas would probably have done. Heck, it's entirely possible this film would have made Mifune's reputation in America. Seriously, you expect me to believe people watched Star Wars because the entire cast was white? No, they watched it because - and this is important - it fucking ruled.
Not here to argue. We disagree, fine. lets move on. They didnt watch it because it was white, but despie lucas' assertions, he didnt cast anyone else in it.

Lets not let this thread degenerate into an argument and lets drop the topic.
 
I think the movie remains pretty similar in broad strokes, it is a very simple story. Wise old mentor sacrifices himself, scoundrel with a heart of gold saves the day in the nick of time, heroes all get a triumphant ending, ect. The differences are in the nuances of Obi-Wan's character, which will directly translate into the characterisation of the Jedi and the force as a whole. Remember there is no lore bar what's on the screen in a New Hope, there are no pre-set directions for these concepts to evolve (assuming the movie is a success and gets a sequel). I don't think this necessarily means the casting would be different, it certainly good butterfly that way but it seams as likely as not it would be Hamill, Ford and Fisher acting alongside him. I would caution everyone to remember George Lucas is not a man who's married to consistency when talking about his plans for Star Wars, I don't suspect a black Han Solo is necessarily more likely and in fact would say less so due to there already being a one less white person in the main cast.
 
That said, if it were done, it would mean a tremendous performance of course. A calm, deep obi wan with the capacity for sudden, brutal violence when needed. A measured, balletic physicality, compared to Guinness' world weary, melancholic spiritual take. There would probably have been a much stronger focus on the fight between Vader and obi wan, which might have been longer and more physical.
The physicality of the Vader-Obi Wan fight was actually limited by the means, namely the lightsabers used being fragile neon tubes.
 
I think the movie remains pretty similar in broad strokes, it is a very simple story. Wise old mentor sacrifices himself, scoundrel with a heart of gold saves the day in the nick of time, heroes all get a triumphant ending, ect. The differences are in the nuances of Obi-Wan's character, which will directly translate into the characterisation of the Jedi and the force as a whole. Remember there is no lore bar what's on the screen in a New Hope, there are no pre-set directions for these concepts to evolve (assuming the movie is a success and gets a sequel). I don't think this necessarily means the casting would be different, it certainly good butterfly that way but it seams as likely as not it would be Hamill, Ford and Fisher acting alongside him. I would caution everyone to remember George Lucas is not a man who's married to consistency when talking about his plans for Star Wars, I don't suspect a black Han Solo is necessarily more likely and in fact would say less so due to there already being a one less white person in the main cast.
 
Not here to argue. We disagree, fine. lets move on. They didnt watch it because it was white, but despie lucas' assertions, he didnt cast anyone else in it.

Lets not let this thread degenerate into an argument and lets drop the topic.
I apologize for my outburst. I was looking into your claims and came across some... well, pretty bad revisionism. I assumed that’s where you’re coming from.

One point? Apparently, Mifune rejected the role of Obi-Wan Kenobi because he felt it would cheapen the image of the Samurai. If he does get on board he’ll probably try to ensure that the Jedi become more like samurai.
 

Deleted member 143718

Yes, Toshiro Mifune was offered the role of Obi-Wan Kenobi. According to his daughter, he regretted not taking it - but what if he had?
That's… the most F***ing AMAZING idea I have ever heard of! I might not be a huge Star Wars nut, but the more interesting "What If…" topics in movies (like this one) ALWAYS pique my interest and curiousity.
 
I apologize for my outburst. I was looking into your claims and came across some... well, pretty bad revisionism. I assumed that’s where you’re coming from.

One point? Apparently, Mifune rejected the role of Obi-Wan Kenobi because he felt it would cheapen the image of the Samurai. If he does get on board he’ll probably try to ensure that the Jedi become more like samurai.
No problem, thank you for the apology. I work in a university, maybe I spend too much time with students!

I agree, with Mifune on board, the jedi become more clearly samurai. Maybe their clothes take less influence from north African clothing of the type worn where they filmed the tattooine scenes and more like traditional Japanese clothing. Maybe obi wan has his own version of Vader's armour?
 
No problem, thank you for the apology. I work in a university, maybe I spend too much time with students!

I agree, with Mifune on board, the jedi become more clearly samurai. Maybe their clothes take less influence from north African clothing of the type worn where they filmed the tattooine scenes and more like traditional Japanese clothing. Maybe obi wan has his own version of Vader's armour?
I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea the Jedi’s clothing draws from the North African tribes. I read it drew upon the Buddhist monks.
Interesting stats. Around what I guessed based on memories of the 90s, which is comforting! Basically, in 1977, no distributor on earth is taking a gamble on a sci fi film with a Japanese actor in a key role drawing on samurai tradition with an interracial romance, sadly.
Still, with the biggest international star in the world onboard, producers are probably going to be willing with this gamble. Seriously; he was huge.
 
Yoda’s the classic “sagely mentor with a wisdom no one else has” type that is a an archetype stretching back centuries. It’s common throughout fantasy, I’d argue especially in East Asia.
True. However it’s not like he’s specifically appropriating Japanese or Chinese culture in a negative fashion.
 
I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea the Jedi’s clothing draws from the North African tribes. I read it drew upon the Buddhist monks.

Still, with the biggest international star in the world onboard, producers are probably going to be willing with this gamble. Seriously; he was huge.
 
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