WI TL-191 - A Victorious USA, A Defeated Germany

I dunno, deporting anI-American Mormons to anti-American Canada seems like a bad mixture.
See the point, but Utah is a worse location strategically speaking. Completely throwing them out of North American a la the Spanish Empire's deportation of Jews and Moslems is not really an option in the twentieth century. They have to be moved within the continent

There is no non Canadian island that is suitable and sending them to say the Great State of Houston would put them too close to the CSA.

Onreflextion within Canada, southern Manitoba is out ;). Instead I would look at say northern Alberta or the Newfoundland coast. A place with a low Canuck population, a fair distance from the USA and with unpleasant weather. Remember, TL_191 USA did not have much against Canadians but they really hated the CSA and Mormons.

Given that it was not done in the second trilogy I don't think that a nasty enough president was elected so this is all theoretical so to speak.

Declaimer: I wish to state that in the real world I do not believe in deporting people just because they are politically inconvenient.
 

bguy

Donor
See the point, but Utah is a worse location strategically speaking. Completely throwing them out of North American a la the Spanish Empire's deportation of Jews and Moslems is not really an option in the twentieth century. They have to be moved within the continent

There is no non Canadian island that is suitable and sending them to say the Great State of Houston would put them too close to the CSA.

Onreflextion within Canada, southern Manitoba is out ;). Instead I would look at say northern Alberta or the Newfoundland coast. A place with a low Canuck population, a fair distance from the USA and with unpleasant weather. Remember, TL_191 USA did not have much against Canadians but they really hated the CSA and Mormons.

What about the Empire of Mexico? I could see the TL-191 US strong arming the Mexican government to take in the Mormons as a quid pro quo for the US agreeing not to overthrow the Emperor at the end of the SGW. (Or maybe the US allows Mexico to retain the Baja Peninsula but only if it takes in the Mormons.)
 
What about the Empire of Mexico? I could see the TL-191 US strong arming the Mexican government to take in the Mormons as a quid pro quo for the US agreeing not to overthrow the Emperor at the end of the SGW. (Or maybe the US allows Mexico to retain the Baja Peninsula but only if it takes in the Mormons.)
Has possibilites so could go with it. However, there is a problem with transporting deported Mormons there. Poor rail communications and they will have to be moved by rail. We are talking about moving women and children and some of the Socialists are not going to stand by if they are put into cattle wagons or forced to march miles, And quite rightly in my view. Another Trail of Tears is not permissible.

In addition they would be next to the CSA. Not that I expect the two to work closely together, but there would be nothing to stop Richmond arming freedom fighters who could easily then cross the border into the USA.

Not saying that the CSA could not arm Mormons in Canada, but more difficult.
 
What about the nukes?

Assuming that Germany managed to finish a bomb, there's one in occupied Germany. Either in hands of Germany or the victorious occupiers.

The CSA bomb probably never got finished.

Austrian-Hungarian/German scientists would probably be co-opted into the British/French bomb p projects.

The British/French would have the bombs by 1944. Maybe Russian too.
 
What about the nukes?

Assuming that Germany managed to finish a bomb, there's one in occupied Germany. Either in hands of Germany or the victorious occupiers.

The CSA bomb probably never got finished.

Austrian-Hungarian/German scientists would probably be co-opted into the British/French bomb p projects.

The British/French would have the bombs by 1944. Maybe Russian too.
The British probably still get the bomb. Granted, the proposed scenario has the war ending in 1943, so maybe Britain doesn't get the bomb during the war but probably later on.
 
The British probably still get the bomb. Granted, the proposed scenario has the war ending in 1943, so maybe Britain doesn't get the bomb during the war but probably later on.
A lot later. Turtledove seriously underestimated the time to develop superbombs. On OTL only one country managed to do so in WW2. The other two (Britain and Germany) stopped circum 1942 on the grounds that they would not get it finished before the estimated end of the war (whatever date that might be).

The fact is that if you have a superbomb project you have to not develop something else. Turtledove's CSA seems to have been immune to economic realities. I guess that it was due to the Freedom Party's amazing leadership and organisation . :)
 
I guess that it was due to the Freedom Party's amazing leadership and organisation . :)
Its due to good ol'fashioned American ingenuity!

Why use European Jewish scientists when American scientists can kabob one out of grit and steel!

Einstein, eat my Oppenheimer!!!


.... Now I have to check if he was namedropped in TL-191....

EDIT: Nope.


To be serious, it does surprise me when I check the wiki that other countries have the bomb. Apparently France, Russia, AH, and Japan have the bomb? I guess AH due to cooperation with Germany, but how do the rest? I don't remember anything about the French bomb, let alone a Russian or Japanese.

Did the US at least try to help their allies in Europe?
I dunno, lol.

But I wouldn't doubt it. In the WI its just a year difference, and from what the wiki says, the Atlantic War was a series of isolated duels. In '42, "After defeating the High Seas Fleet decisively, the Royal Navy sent a major fleet into the western Atlantic to challenge the US Navy for supremacy in the area. The British were defeated, and the US Navy pressed its advantage by retaking Bermuda and sending warships to supply Irish rebels with weapons."

"In 1943, a seaborne operation to re-recapture Bermuda from British and CS forces succeeded in seizing control of the island for the United States. The United States began running guns to Irish rebels in their fight against the British occupiers."


An earlier victorious US could see the British kept completely out of the Atlantic. I don't read anything about the French so yes, I can see the Americans send guns to Germany. The issue is Germany is way in Europe, not like Ireland where its west of London. So they'll have to get through the English channel/past France/Britian to get guns into Germany.
 
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Turtledove's CSA seems to have been immune to economic realities. I guess that it was due to the Freedom Party's amazing leadership and organisation . :)
Remember, the Confederacy's bomb was rushed. Not only was Featherston uneducated about uranium and rejected FitzBelmont at first, FitzBelmont even said that the bomb would be fully finished by 1946 and complained that Featherston rejecting him had cost him months from the project. The Confederates had the bomb working because of British help, but by then, it was too late.
 
Remember, the Confederacy's bomb was rushed. Not only was Featherston uneducated about uranium and rejected FitzBelmont at first, FitzBelmont even said that the bomb would be fully finished by 1946 and complained that Featherston rejecting him had cost him months from the project. The Confederates had the bomb working because of British help, but by then, it was too late.
Sorry, but not convinced. The USA had British help on OTL and it still took them until early 1945. OK so they ran two programmes (uranium and plutonium) but stopping one does not mean the other can be run faster.

There is also the matter of delivery. On OTL timeline there were only two aircraft that could carry a superbomb, the B29 and the Lancaster. And I would not want to drop a superbomb from a Lancaster. At least Turtledove did not dream up a CSA bomber to drop one because they had too many advanced programmes for their economy as it was.
 

bguy

Donor
A lot later. Turtledove seriously underestimated the time to develop superbombs. On OTL only one country managed to do so in WW2. The other two (Britain and Germany) stopped circum 1942 on the grounds that they would not get it finished before the estimated end of the war (whatever date that might be).

Couldn't that just reflect that the world of TL-191 is slightly more technologically advanced than our world (or at least it is slightly more advance in the area of atomic physics than our world.) That seems plausible enough given that in TL-191 Germany, with its vast scientific capabilities, didn't end up in the hands of a regime of genocidal lunatics that dismiss nuclear physics as "Jew science". With Germany (and Austria-Hungary) making a meaningful contribution to nuclear research in TL-191 it would make sense that the technology would develop sooner than it did IOTL and thus that atomic bombs might be available somewhat earlier.

The fact is that if you have a superbomb project you have to not develop something else. Turtledove's CSA seems to have been immune to economic realities. I guess that it was due to the Freedom Party's amazing leadership and organisation . :)

Yeah, that one I can't explain. (And it was made even more ridiculous when you consider that the US was regularly bombing the main site for Confederate atomic research.)
 
A lot later. Turtledove seriously underestimated the time to develop superbombs. On OTL only one country managed to do so in WW2. The other two (Britain and Germany) stopped circum 1942 on the grounds that they would not get it finished before the estimated end of the war (whatever date that might be).

Couldn't that just reflect that the world of TL-191 is slightly more technologically advanced than our world (or at least it is slightly more advance in the area of atomic physics than our world.) That seems plausible enough given that in TL-191 Germany, with its vast scientific capabilities, didn't end up in the hands of a regime of genocidal lunatics that dismiss nuclear physics as "Jew science". With Germany (and Austria-Hungary) making a meaningful contribution to nuclear research in TL-191 it would make sense that the technology would develop sooner than it did IOTL and thus that atomic bombs might be available somewhat earlier.
If you go by theoreticians on OTL atomic research was originally split in German, US, British and Danish "programmes." Some of the former and all of the rest eventually ended up in the Manhatten Project. On the TL-191 all three/four plus the CSA programme all remained seperate. (We are ignoring possible espionage and collaberation between the USA and Germany). You lose opportunities for more cross-fertilisation. of ideas with what are secret projects. Ideas are not being bounced off like minds leading to more ideas.
A real world example is that the Japanese mathematician Takebe Kenkō invented a crude form of calculus. However, he was only one in the region in the field and only got so far. In contrast a nuber of Europeans were openly working in the field and thus was born calculus as we know it.

There is also the economic factor. OTL WW2 USA had a larger economy than any TL_-91 country and had not been invaded by another power. Thus it had more resources in total than any of them. Therefore it can afford more on technology whilst putting proportionally the same number of armies, fleet and air forces in the field. It decided that it could afford a superbomb programme whilst its ally Britian ccame to the opposite conclusion. If OTL WW2 Germany had continued its superbomb programme it would have had to cut resources from something else.

In conclusion, from a literary :) point of view having four sucessful superbomb programmes in TL_191 makes for interesting fiction, it is unlikely to have happened in a "real world". In that case one of my favourite characters Clarence Potter would not have been put on trial as a war criminal and a number of great scenes would have been lost. I am always happy for an alternate history author to bend the "truth" a litle for a better story.
 

bguy

Donor
If you go by theoreticians on OTL atomic research was originally split in German, US, British and Danish "programmes." Some of the former and all of the rest eventually ended up in the Manhatten Project. On the TL-191 all three/four plus the CSA programme all remained seperate. (We are ignoring possible espionage and collaberation between the USA and Germany). You lose opportunities for more cross-fertilisation. of ideas with what are secret projects. Ideas are not being bounced off like minds leading to more ideas.

Doesn't that cut both ways though? Yes, having one big centralized project can make it easier for cross-fertilisation of ideas, but it can also produce an environment where group think sets in and people are afraid to voice alternate ideas that go against the group consensus, and the entire project can also be derailed because of bad leadership or a toxic work environment.

Also, it's not as though there wasn't transnational sharing of ideas in TL-191. Professor Fitzbelmont himself mentions that he realized a nuclear bomb was possible after reading about the results of nuclear research being conducted in Germany, and he also notes that once the war starts the US scientific journals suddenly stop mentioning uranium (which means they were mentioning it before the war), so at least until the Second Great War started nuclear research was being freely discussed among the global scientific community in TL-191.

There is also the economic factor. OTL WW2 USA had a larger economy than any TL_-91 country and had not been invaded by another power. Thus it had more resources in total than any of them. Therefore it can afford more on technology whilst putting proportionally the same number of armies, fleet and air forces in the field. It decided that it could afford a superbomb programme whilst its ally Britian ccame to the opposite conclusion. If OTL WW2 Germany had continued its superbomb programme it would have had to cut resources from something else.

You're right about the US economy being smaller in TL-191 though it's worth also considering that there was a lot of redundancy in the US atomic bomb program IOTL with the US developing two different types of atomic weapons. A US under more pressure and with less resources could have gotten by with a more streamlined program that only developed a single type of bomb.

On Germany though, there are a number of factors that would make TL-191 Germany far better situated to develop an atomic weapon than Nazi Germany ever was.

1) The TL-191 German Empire almost certainly has a much bigger economy than Nazi Germany did. (It won't be suffering from Nazi Germany's chronic economic mismanagement, and it fought a much less destructive First Great War, after which it was able to enjoy being the dominant economic power in Europe for a whole generation, so it's undoubtedly starting from a much stronger position);
2) TL-191 Tsarist Russia seems a much feebler foe than the OTL Soviet Union was. (The TL-191 Russians had a longer civil war than the Soviets did, and are starting out without the resources of Ukraine and the Baltic States. They also don't seem to have industrialized to anywhere near the same extent that Stalin pushed the Soviet Union, and of course the TL-191 Russians aren't getting Lend Lease from the United States.) If Russia is much weaker in TL-191, than the Germans won't need to donate anywhere near the same amount of resources to the Eastern Front that they did IOTL, which frees up resources for things like a real nuclear bomb program.
3) Somewhat related to point 2, but German goals on the Eastern Front in TL-191 are also much less grandiose than what the Nazis tried to do IOTL. The TL-191 Germans seem content to mostly just defend their own territory and only making very limited advances into Russian territory. (IIRC they don't even advance all the way to Petrograd.) Since they aren't trying to pull off anything nearly as big and complicated as Operation Barbarossa that will also free up a lot of resources for things like an atomic bomb program since its going to be a lot less resource intensive to defend your own territory rather than advance a thousand miles through enemy lands.
4) TL-191 Germany isn't doing the Holocaust. IOTL the Nazis wasted a staggering amount of resources on the Holocaust. (It was like a whole third front in the war for them.) Just by Germany not pursuing that monstrous program they will free up a tremendous amount of resources for other priorities.
 
Regarding the nukes, I mean does it really matter?

Canonically, the British do manage to get at least 2 nukes by war's end.

Does Japan still betray the Entente or not? Because that is the single biggest factor on how the US proceeds.
The Japanese turn on them 'cause they were losing the war, I think lost the Pacific battles against the US.

I'd assume they stay allies if the British win the war.
 
1) The TL-191 German Empire almost certainly has a much bigger economy than Nazi Germany did. (It won't be suffering from Nazi Germany's chronic economic mismanagement, and it fought a much less destructive First Great War, after which it was able to enjoy being the dominant economic power in Europe for a whole generation, so it's undoubtedly starting from a much stronger position);
2) TL-191 Tsarist Russia seems a much feebler foe than the OTL Soviet Union was. (The TL-191 Russians had a longer civil war than the Soviets did, and are starting out without the resources of Ukraine and the Baltic States. They also don't seem to have industrialized to anywhere near the same extent that Stalin pushed the Soviet Union, and of course the TL-191 Russians aren't getting Lend Lease from the United States.) If Russia is much weaker in TL-191, than the Germans won't need to donate anywhere near the same amount of resources to the Eastern Front that they did IOTL, which frees up resources for things like a real nuclear bomb program.
3) Somewhat related to point 2, but German goals on the Eastern Front in TL-191 are also much less grandiose than what the Nazis tried to do IOTL. The TL-191 Germans seem content to mostly just defend their own territory and only making very limited advances into Russian territory. (IIRC they don't even advance all the way to Petrograd.) Since they aren't trying to pull off anything nearly as big and complicated as Operation Barbarossa that will also free up a lot of resources for things like an atomic bomb program since its going to be a lot less resource intensive to defend your own territory rather than advance a thousand miles through enemy lands.
4) TL-191 Germany isn't doing the Holocaust. IOTL the Nazis wasted a staggering amount of resources on the Holocaust. (It was like a whole third front in the war for them.) Just by Germany not pursuing that monstrous program they will free up a tremendous amount of resources for other priorities.
Agree with this TL. This explains why Germany was able to build more superbombs than the USA did on OTL.

I would add the following.
1) With a friendly Middle East (Ottoman Empire) Germany does not have a issue with a supply of oil and thus no need to go down the synthetic oil route. Yes, capital in the form of a pipe line is required, but the cost of fuel will be cheaper.
2) There is the opportunity to build heavy bombers. On OTL the officer corps appreciate strategic bombing, but close air support was higher priority. Unless you go down the Clarence Potter route you need the equivalent of an Avro Lancaster or Boeing Superfortress. It is not so much tonnnage as size and shape of bomb bay. He177s, Boeing Flying Fortresses and Handley Page Halifaxs don't deliver the goods here.
I'd assume they stay allies if the British win the war.
On OTL it was the British who dissolved the alliance because with no German High Seas fleet and a friendly USA there was no longer a need for it. On TL-191 whether or not Germany is defeated the British will not dissolve the alliance because of a hostile USA. It is in the interest for the Japanese to maintain the alliance too because in the event of another war the US Navy would have to cover two oceans rather than concentrate on just one.
 
If the CSA loses early and pre-bomb, do you think Texas still has a chance at independence?
There is no reason for the USA to let it. A reason why they were allowed to on the TL-191 timeline was that the USA wanted to finish off the CSA before Potter delivered another superbomb. Another less important one it made it easier to capture Pinkard and his fellow merry men. No warning. Just the Texas Rangers suddenly slapping the cuffs on them.
 
This could actually result in a very interesting Cold War, as the US would at first be on the back foot, but once decolonization got going, Britain and France would be seen to diminish, and Russia would count for more within the Entente, eventually leading to Japan allying with the Americans.
 
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