No, but they can get an early A-bomb, and therefore fulfil the retrospectively long-held desire of nuking
WI Tirpitz sortied with Bismarck 1941?
- Thread starter starman
- Start date
No, but they can get an early A-bomb, and therefore fulfil the retrospectively long-held desire of nuking
Deleted member 92195
I'm one of the most logical persons around, I don't do hyper inflated scenarios.
It's all dependent on the scenario, the French fleet at this point is a puppet of Nazi Germany. Now you say it, I don't know why the British did not salvage the French fleet after sinking it. Out of respect, I suppose.
Poor Brest - as if it wasn't bombed enough as it was
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Irrespective of whether the Germans get the French fleet (which is a stretch anyway), the Graf Spee and the Blucher were already at the bottom of the sea in 1941, so they would not take part in any fleet action. Except maybe as ghostships, which would probably be a gamechanger in favor of the Germans.
RodentRevolution
Banned
I am trying to work out if he means for the Deutschland to bifurcate and then form two new versions of itself in the world's first case of shipular mitosis or if he is somehow getting the incomplete Lutzow back from Stalin though at this point that seems too prosaic.
This entire post relies on ASB levels of competence, free resources, and the like for the Germans. Sorry, I dont see how this is even quasi-realistiic at all.
nbcman
Donor
Speaking of salvage, how about have the Nazi's salvage Bayern and the rest from Scapa Flow. Genius way to expand the KM - just do it when the RN isn't looking.
The RN only sank a single BB during the attack at Mers-el-Kebir plus a tugboat. Pretty slim salvage pickings. Please read up on topics before making such pie in the sky claims as the British sank the French Fleet.
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Deleted member 92195
All that is required is competent anti-aircraft cover and the correct use of the Luftwaffe. Fuel is a sticking point but as it stated in the post the Germans did "not see a strategic plan in which the naval forces would play a major role" and this applies to their own navy because the did not have the required competence, 'foresight' to plan naval operations. If sending a battleship and cruiser into the Atlantic is going to contribute anything then I am Elvis Presley, which I am not. This scenario is fantastic for finishing off Britain before Hitler starts conquering the Soviet Union. For example, the American use of 'island hopping' in the Pacific is genius. Invade an island using marines and bombard them with air cover and battleships and lead the American air force, navy and army up to Japan and then bomb them with nukes. Instead of invading indo-china or Japan directly which would cause millions of causalities.
In respect to my hypothesised operation, there were six others out of the seven and it could actually fail, probably where they have to wait for a year. But the scenario is overall complicated, as well for the British in the Meditteranean because they battling the Italians. Like I said the scenario is not fully developed.
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Deleted member 92195
The list is in order of ship type, I am referring to the incomplete Lützow (heavy cruiser), I wrote Deutschland to distinguish the two. One gets confused when thinking, writing and then you come across an error!
I'd have to examine the delivery dates closely. I am guessing the mid 1943 rise in delivery reflects material embarked 120-150 days earlier.
The 'Big nazi Fleet Battle'. The scenarios I observed or heard about varied in size. A dozen ships on the table was a fair sized game with rules like General Quarters.
No. #1 rule of nazi fanbois is the opposition never gets a break.
There is a simpler way for the Axis to win the battle of the Atlantic. I believe biggest strategic failure of the Axis was to not close the Med in the summer/fall of 1940. Had they taken Gibraltar and the Suez they would have effectively gained the Italian fleet. Now that fleet was not really prepared to fight in the Atlantic, but based in Gibraltar it could have put a serious crimp in convoy routing. Plus it protects Italy from any internal damage.
I firmly believe if this had happened that by mid 1941 Britain (provided they couldn't get back into the Med) would have negotiated a armistice.
I firmly believe if this had happened that by mid 1941 Britain (provided they couldn't get back into the Med) would have negotiated a armistice.
May I ask, how do you propose to take Gibraltar? Assuming as per OTL that Spain won't play, I can't see how Gibraltar can be taken.
The thread is about options in the spring of 1941. By that time the supplies were still running east (and back) in German trains.
With less RN heavy units in the Med, and considering that OTL the RM and the RN fought a number of surface actions in which the Italians were limited by lack of fuel and air cover, the possibility of the RM inflicting heavy losses in the RN given both is there.
While they are at it perhaps they can also capture New York and London?
Well if nothing else you have experienced something new here.I always enter a discussion I can win.
A less than watertight proposal will be ripped to shreds in here by the weight of learned fact.
I commend your enthusiasm and hope in the future you temper it with much greater research and critical thinking. Always play devil's advocate to your own theories. Look upon them as if they were the antithesis to your very being. That way you will spot holes before others do.
Best of luck for your future ventures.
I assume Archduke was supposing no Norway campaign (and I guess no loss of the Spee at the start of the war); the Graf Zeppelin carrier was more or less completed; or certainly could have been made to be in operating condition without much deviation from the original timeline
Including the pocket battleships with the group is problematic because of their much lower top speed; if one excludes them the German battle group would be extremely fast, and in 1941 the British would be hard pressed to generate a surface warfare battle group to chase them down that could reliably defeat the 4 German capital ships
That's what carriers are for, slow em down if you need to. Lets also remember whilst the German ships might have a higher top end, cruising speeds will be about the same and that's what will matter most of the time given the distances they have to go to reach convoys.