WI There was a Pope Joan?

[Tom_B]

Just before the Reformation there was a popular story about a woman who disguised herself as a man became a priest and then eventually rose to Pope, got pregnant and went into labor during a public procession and was killed by an angry mob (story has some variants). She supposedly was one of the John's--it is one of the reasons why John had an aura of being a ill name for a Pope.

Calvin wanted very very much to believe that this story was true and put in considerable research but < heavy sigh > reluctantly came to the conclusion that it was a medieval Urban Legend (along with alligators in the sewers)

Occasionally someone tries once again to prove it did happen.

Let us assume OTL it is false but in another TL it was true and furthermore could not be hushed up. What impact does it have?

 

[NapoleonXIV]

According to my copy of the book on her by Donna Woolfolk Cross, this took place in the 9thc. She makes probably the best case for its reality that can be made, but then she would.

If she somehow enters the indisputable list of Popes she makes a really good argument for the female priesthood, doesn't she. Then, of course, if this latest series of scandals hasn't done that already nothing short of a new pope ever will.

 

[carlton_bach]

Given that generations of Catholic churchmen believed it was true, I doubt it actually being true would have had much of an effect on their decisions (and the church is really the one factor that it would significantly affect). It would certainly play a role in the modern debate about the ordination of women, but there are better historical and practical arguments for that.

BTW, I would not entirely exclude the possibility of something like this having happened (though the whole 'giving birth during a procession' tale is just so cliche). Ever hear of Doctor James Miranda Barry RA?

 

[Grey Wolf]

Just before the Reformation there was a popular story about a woman who disguised herself as a man became a priest and then eventually rose to Pope, got pregnant and went into labor during a public procession and was killed by an angry mob (story has some variants). She supposedly was one of the John's--it is one of the reasons why John had an aura of being a ill name for a Pope.

Calvin wanted very very much to believe that this story was true and put in considerable research but < heavy sigh > reluctantly came to the conclusion that it was a medieval Urban Legend (along with alligators in the sewers)

Occasionally someone tries once again to prove it did happen.

Let us assume OTL it is false but in another TL it was true and furthermore could not be hushed up. What impact does it have?

Regarding hushing up, it wouldn't reach the general level of consciousness as a fact rather than a rumour until the period of the Reformation anyway because the ordinary citizen would not be able to find out about it before the explosion in the use of the printing press at the turn of the sixteenth century

Therefore, it is set up for Calvin to use as he clearly desired. However, what was Calvin's motivation ? If it was mainly to discredit the Catholic church then I can see little real impact. But if he wished to draw doctrinal points from the story then maybe he has greater success ? I don't know enough, and the history of the Reformation always depressed me, it was my least favourite aspect of all history I studied. But I guess that if it was true, and Calvin wanted to use it for proto-feminist purposes it could have an effect ?

Grey Wolf

 

[Max Sinister]

Ever hear of Doctor James Miranda Barry RA?

No, who's that?
In a Terry pratchett interview (it was about his second latest book "Monstrous Regiment" about a girl going to the army, disguised as a boy) I read that somewhen in the 19th century the first doctor of the British army was in fact a woman - but they found out only after her death.

 

[carlton_bach]

No, who's that?
In a Terry pratchett interview (it was about his second latest book "Monstrous Regiment" about a girl going to the army, disguised as a boy) I read that somewhen in the 19th century the first doctor of the British army was in fact a woman - but they found out only after her death.

That's James Miranda Barry. Then there was the Chevalier d'Eon and a number of more anecdotal female soldiers and sailors...

Apparently, it could be done. When you think of iot, a lot of the weay we identify gender is based on socially defined signals (clothing, hairstyles, gestures, makeup etc.). Would you really be able to spot a cross-dresser who's good at it?

 

[Chris]

Yes. Any cross-dresser would have to use single-sex facilities. It would pretty soon become clear that the 'boy' is in fact a girl, particualy in battlefield conditions. I could see a symperthetic NCO covering things up tho. (Guns of the South anyone?)

If there had been a female Pope at somepoint, I suspect it would have discredited the chatholic beliefs on the postion of women. many preists put on a display of blind sexism that would have shamed a whabni and stated that mary had been chosen by God and not man. Have a female pope and such tales become laughable. Faster fall of the vatican?

Chris