WI there really had been American POWs still stuck in 'Nam?

Seriously, it would make no sense for Vietnam to keep American POWs. Once America pulled out it was essentially mission accomplished- all that remained was to complete the final crushing of the South and take Saigon.

I can buy the idea that EW specialists could have been carted off to the USSR but not that Vietnam would have any use for POWs themselves.
 
Check pp. 66-67 of An Enormous Crime, and some of those following. They lay out a theory about what NVN's motives would be at the end of the war, using a RAND study prepared in 1969 on the subject of POWs in Indochina. And in the first peace talks at Paris (1968), the NVN explicitly linked release of POWs to postwar aid. (pp.65-66)

And before you claim that live sightings were only from Vietnamese: there was a large Swedish paper mill in NVN (post-1975), and it was the largest non-Soviet foreign aid project in-country. Three incidents are worthy of mention, as they were reported by Westerners employed at the paper mill.

1) A pair of Norweigan workers, on their day off, were on a motorbike trip near the mill when they came across a chain gang of prisoners. All were Caucasians. Armed guards forced them out of the area. (1978)

2) In the same year, another Norweigan, on a hike nearby, was briefly detained by local police, who believed he was an escaped American, and was bluntly told "We still have some in our prisons."

3) A West German engineer was on-site when two American POWs got inside the aid compound and asked for asylum. He was told by friends that the two were a Marine pilot named Schmidt and an Air Force enlisted man by the name of Melton. The Swedes, fearing a diplomatic incidient, handed the two back to the Viets. Both names correlate to known MIA cases. (1979)
 

Japhy

Banned
Check pp. 66-67 of An Enormous Crime, and some of those following. They lay out a theory about what NVN's motives would be at the end of the war, using a RAND study prepared in 1969 on the subject of POWs in Indochina. And in the first peace talks at Paris (1968), the NVN explicitly linked release of POWs to postwar aid. (pp.65-66)

And before you claim that live sightings were only from Vietnamese: there was a large Swedish paper mill in NVN (post-1975), and it was the largest non-Soviet foreign aid project in-country. Three incidents are worthy of mention, as they were reported by Westerners employed at the paper mill.

1) A pair of Norweigan workers, on their day off, were on a motorbike trip near the mill when they came across a chain gang of prisoners. All were Caucasians. Armed guards forced them out of the area. (1978)

2) In the same year, another Norweigan, on a hike nearby, was briefly detained by local police, who believed he was an escaped American, and was bluntly told "We still have some in our prisons."

3) A West German engineer was on-site when two American POWs got inside the aid compound and asked for asylum. He was told by friends that the two were a Marine pilot named Schmidt and an Air Force enlisted man by the name of Melton. The Swedes, fearing a diplomatic incidient, handed the two back to the Viets. Both names correlate to known MIA cases. (1979)

An Enormous Crime is a propaganda piece, not really a legitimate source. But please for those of us who don't have copies at hand, can you explain what they're saying is the reason for the North Vietnamese holding POWs indefinitely?

Also, what about the various deaths have have been found in the past 20 years with the help of the Vietnamese government? Plenty of those guys were supposedly held and it has become clear they never were. Like it was already noted the Soviets might have an interest in certain types of prisoners but why would the NVA continue to keep prisoners alive in Laos and the North for years after the war ended?
 
The Reason they held them is the same reason they were holding French Soldiers from the 1940's and early 1950's . The rumors were the French were being Blackmailed by the North for ransoms and Grants From France to build bridges , electric plants , and other iteams .
And these rumors have been out there since the early days of the Vietnam War . As were the Rumors that Special Forces troops operated in North Vietnam and the PRC .
 
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Japhy

Banned
In the 1940's and 1950's the Viet Mihn were holding French Troops captive because they were in the middle of their War with the French...
 
Korean War MIAs

From the few sources I have read or docs watched, it seems a far worse issue was the Korean POWs, of several nationalities.
Brain washing, indoctrination, I seem to recall an eyewitness account in the USSR from the mid - late 70s of some mature Western prisoner/workers encountered.
How many are still MIA from 50 -53, does anyone know? Was it a significant issue in actuality?
 
You want a reason, here you go: Basically, the NVN were promised by Nixon (via Kissinger) that there would be a generous postwar aid package for the North, to the tune of about $3.5 Billion in direct aid, and $1.5 Billion in soft loans (pp. 69-70 of An Enormous Crime), subject to approval by Congress (something that the NVN didn't understand-no President can spend money on something unless Congress approves). When the POWs who were returned told their stories of torture and mistreatment, Congressional support started to whither, and then Watergate blew up, and the aid package with it.

Have you even read the book? It's well documented, with materials from the Library of Congress' own POW-MIA search engine, material from DIA, CIA, State Dept., DOD, etc. obtained via FOIA, personal interviews, media sources, etc. And how do you explain the satellite or SR-71 imagery of pilot distress signals? Each aircrew member in SEA was given a code to use if they were shot down and had lost their radio. Two letters and four numbers, and each code was just for that specific person. If I'm a photo interpeter, and I notice a valid E&E code on a prison rooftop, or in a field adjacent to the prison, I would assume that someone's trying to send a message, namely "Get me out of here!" And there were times during the war when POWs did communicate via rooftop messages-Son Tay in 1969 and early 1970, and at Hoa Lo (Hanoi Hilton) during the LINEBACKER II raids in Dec 1972.
 

Japhy

Banned
I've looked the book over before, and the Author isn't to reliable a source, he was an Angry, One-issue Congressmen back in the 1980's and has kept beating the drum of Abandoned POW's to keep his name in the media ever since.

I don't know how you go about ignoring the fact that in the past two decades the Vietnamese have been very willing to help Americans identify previously MIA remains. These men who were believed captured for the most part were killed, or as already noted deserted.

The idea that the Vietnamese would continue to hold prisoners when releasing them could help them in their quest for an Aid Package doesn't really make a lot of sense. Excluding the idea that the Russians were interested in Special Duty officers, theres no real logic behind the North Holding prisoners indefinitely in the shadows. Were there photos of Spy Satellite and SR-71 Photos in the book? Because I'd be interested in seeing the alleged codes.
 

Keenir

Banned
1) A pair of Norweigan workers, on their day off, were on a motorbike trip near the mill when they came across a chain gang of prisoners. All were Caucasians.

and how many Caucasian-looking Viet-Caucasian children were left in Vietnam after the US left? those kids grew up, and its not inconceivable that some ended up in a chain gang.
(if Vietnam actually has such an American organization)

2) In the same year, another Norweigan, on a hike nearby, was briefly detained by local police, who believed he was an escaped American, and was bluntly told "We still have some in our prisons."

if he was believed to be an American, why would he be told that? why not simply cart him off to prison?
 
The aid project was in North Vietnam, near Yen Bai. Not down south, where the Ameriasians were living (and treated pretty shabbily, even before the fall of Saigon). And a chain gang of adults, not young kids or teenagers. One would presume that these two on the motorbike knew the difference between Amerasians and Caucasians.

The fella presumably had his passport and other IDs, which convinced the local cops that he was who he said he was.

Frankly, I was very skeptical myself of those stories. I'm a trained historian (BA and MA in history), and the book is very well documented. I stumbled across the book at Barnes and Noble, read it, and was impressed enough to buy it. And if one checks the bibliography, it's very well documented, and one can find many of the documents online at the Library of Congress' POW-MIA Search page. Most of the documents relating to POW-MIA issues were declassified in the 1990s, and are now available. Some are still classified (especially those related to COMINT and certain HUMINT sources).

And you're still not able to explain either the Tighe Report (which the then-Chairman of the JCS agreed with), the last known alive list of 325-which includes men known to have been captured but were not returned, and were not on the NVN or VC "Died in Captivity" list, or the overhead imagery from either Satellite or SR-71 from 1975-1992, showing pilots' E&E symbols or evasion codes. Some of the codes match those issued to aircrew who are still missing. The photos have not been released, but they are mentioned in the book, and the Senate Select Committee on POW-MIAs.
 
Matt, you probably should take a look at this work. Bolding is mine.

----------------

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0679430164/joeschlatteshomeA/
From Publishers Weekly

The POW/MIA "industry," according to the author, has long nurtured a powerful myth that Americans listed as missing in action since the Vietnam War are still alive and being held captive. One supposedly supporting argument is the apparent precedent that the Vietnamese held French POWs long after the first Indochina war ended in 1954. Keating points out that the two situations are not comparable and that U.S. prisoners would not be likely to have survived the torture and starvation the Vietnamese traditionally inflicted on POWs. She describes how the POW/MIA myth has been encouraged by profiteers, do-gooders and self-appointed commandos such as James "Bo" Gritz, whose private-sector forays into Southeast Asia have fanned the hopes of MIA families for years, along with bogus reports of "live sightings." Keating reviews the cycle of government investigations that have failed to turn up solid evidence, and supports the Senate's Kerry Committee conclusion that the U.S. did not knowingly abandon any troops in Southeast Asia and that there has been no government conspiracy of concealment. This is a first-class investigative report that may make a difference. Keating is a reporter for the Washington Times. Author tour.
Copyright 1994 Reed Business Information, Inc.

From Kirkus Reviews

A compelling book dealing with the question of MIAs in Vietnam. As a journalist Keating has worked for Soldier of Fortune magazine and the conservative Washington Times. Nonetheless, in the present volume, she uses her skills as an investigative reporter to attack the notion that American POWs and MIAs were left behind in Indochina. A vocal lobby clamors for a full accounting of all MIAs, numbered by the federal government at around 1,200. Reported sightings add fuel to the belief that American soldiers were held hostage by the Vietnamese and abandoned by a government eager to put the war behind it. After all, the logic goes, hadn't it happened to the French in the 1950s? The truth, however, according to Keating, is that the US experience is not that of the French: No American POWs remain. And aside from a few known defectors, all the MIAs are dead. Citing the 80,000 missing from WW II, Keating points out that MIAs are part of the nature of modern warfare, in which the recovery or identification of remains is often impossible. In the case of the Vietnam POWs, however, the military had reduced the number of true ``missing'' to under 100 before a political hue and cry forced them to inflate the MIA list with the names of many men known to be dead but whose bodies were not found. Sightings of live POWs are hoaxes, says Keating, designed to fuel a political machine or to extort money from relatives on the slim hope that the men are alive. She slams, in particular, mercenaries like Bull Simons and Bo Gritz, who plan raids into Indochina (most of which never occur) in search of the lost. The real conspiracy, writes Keating, is not committed by a government bent on hiding a scandal but by those who prey on the hopes and fears of the ones truly left behind--the families of the dead. Highly persuasive. -- Copyright ©1994, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.

------------------

And like most conspiracy theoriies, it falls apart once you take into account the vast number of people it'd require to keep their mouth shut. To start with:

http://www.jpac.pacom.mil/

Essentially you'd have to believe an entire agency, many of them current and former career military officers, would willingly spend decades covering this up and leaving US POWs to languish in prison camps, and then also spend enormous effort and resources to avoid finding them, or seemingly be one huge diversionary effort.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The terms PoW & MIA are being used interchangeably by some in this thread as if they mean the same thing. They do not.

The PoW issue, whether you believe the minority position or the generally accepted one that no one was left behind, has NOTHING(no, let me repeat that, NOTHING TO DO WITH MIAs.

MIA are inevitable in a war where aircraft are hit with SAM or 120mm AA shells. That is understood by everyone. Where there some MIA who were actually PoW? Yes. Many? No.

The issue is that there were a number of Americans who were KNOWN to have been alive and in captivity that never returned, nor were their remains repatriated. The number varies based on the source, but virtually all sources establish it at at least 50, with very reliable sources (DoD Last Seen Alive as a primary) listing some 100+ individuals, which is down from the 296 on the original list as remains have been repatriated and further Intel has been developed.

50 Men. Are 50 men, most, if not virtually all, of whom would now be dead from the combination of age and poor treatment received prior to 1975 really that hard to hide? How about 10? Five? Keep them in a single hut just because they REALLY pissed you off. How great a conspiracy is needed to pull that off?

There is a simple fact involved here, and it also hasn't been looked at. This is WHO would want to expose the truth?

The Vietnamese Government? Hardly. The current government wants nothing more than move forward from a war that lasted from 1941 until 1975 and has absolutely no interest in losing the American market or getting the U.S. really irritated, given the way the U.S. has reacted to serious irritants in the last couple decades (not that this is likely, see below).

The Democrats? Not a chance. If there were left behinds, Carter had the best chance of recovering them while Clinton normalized relations. Today, the last thing the U.S. needs is another war, this time in the PRC's backyard.

The Republicans? Christ no. Nixon would have been the one who left them there, Ford didn't do a thing to change it, Reagan left them there to rot, and both Bush I & II let any survivors spend their last years in Vietnamese hands.

The Military leadership of the U.S? Not in a million years. Not if they ever expect even a single man to deploy overseas. The one great thing that keeps American troops going into harm's way is that they KNOW their country will come and get them if something goes sideways.

The Media? After 37 years of putting every single person who claimed that there were PoWs still being held prisoner into the crackpot file (and ridiculing every one they could) the ROI isn't there.

The average American? The less they have to think about the Vietnam War the happier they are, assuming they even know anything about the War to begin with. High School seniors graduating in May were born AFTER THE GULF WAR, they know spit about The 'Nam.

In short, no one WANTS to know. I sure as hell don't. I love this country, and it would be pretty damned hard to love it if it left good men to rot.

So to answer the OP question: Take a look around. Things would look pretty much like you see right now.
 

Keenir

Banned
The aid project was in North Vietnam, near Yen Bai. Not down south, where the Ameriasians were living

and why is moving impossible? not everyone lives where they were born.

chain gang of adults, not young kids or teenagers. One would presume that these two on the motorbike knew the difference between Amerasians and Caucasians.

given the skin diversity within "Caucasian", I severely doubt that.


The fella presumably had his passport and other IDs, which convinced the local cops that he was who he said he was.

so why did they mention they had Americans captive if it was a secret?

I stumbled across the book at Barnes and Noble,

Barnes&Noble also has books about how crystal energy proves that the feathered serpent will eat the world in the galactic center on December 2012.


and you keep citing this book, and saying it cites other things...yet you haven't specified any reports or articles besides the title of this one book.
 
I'm wondering if you've even read the book...And it wasn't in the Poli-Sci section, or metaphysical (i.e. psychics, witchcraft and other such tripe), it was in the Vietnam War section.

Now, go to the Library of Congress' POW-MIA search engine. They have many of the documents cited in the book. Type in locations like Yen Bai, or Ba Vi Mountain, and you'll get documents on live sightings, prison descriptions, and so on. Or type in the name of someone who was a POW, and there'll be stuff there as well (usually the "confessions" extracted from them by torture and played over Radio Hanoi). Others are debriefing material from POWs after their return.

Also, find the book Why Didn't You Get Me Out? by Frank Anton, CWO, U.S. Army, (Ret). He was a POW for five years, three in VC jungle camps, and two in Hanoi. CWO Anton remarked to his debriefers two things that I find interesting. One, he was shown a copy of the North Vietnamese Newspaper Nham Dhan, shortly after the LINEBACKER II raids in Dec '72. There was an article on some downed B-52 crewmen, and included was a photo. Two had missing limbs, but appeared otherwise in good shape. None of the POWs who came back were missing limbs, btw. Two, several POWs had communicated with another cell block in the Hanoi Hilton, and in that cell block were a number of B-52 airmen, and they were treating several colleagues who had lost limbs. His debriefers admitted to him that those men had been left behind, and that "It's going to take some time to get them back." And one other thing: Anton had a live sighting himself of a downed Army helo pilot in Laos as he was walking north. This pilot was in good shape, was uninjured, and had several NVA guards escorting him. Only 10 POWs captured in Laos were returned in '73. One civilian pilot, two civilian missionaries, and seven USAF or USN aviators. No Army personnel. Again, his debriefers told him "We're still working to get them back."
 

Keenir

Banned
I'm wondering if you've even read the book...And it wasn't in the Poli-Sci section, or metaphysical (i.e. psychics, witchcraft and other such tripe), it was in the Vietnam War section.

no, it isn't.

and I checked four different Barnes & Nobles.

even checked two Borders.


Now, go to the Library of Congress' POW-MIA search engine. They have many of the documents cited in the book.

...which you keep saying the book has, yet you refuse to name any of them.

hell, would providing a link to any of this, would that terribly inconvenience you?


Type in locations like Yen Bai, or Ba Vi Mountain, and you'll get documents on live sightings, prison descriptions, and so on. Or type in the name of someone who was a POW, and there'll be stuff there as well (usually the "confessions" extracted from them by torture and played over Radio Hanoi). Others are debriefing material from POWs after their return.

o-kay, and this is relevant to your claim - how?


There was an article on some downed B-52 crewmen, and included was a photo. Two had missing limbs, but appeared otherwise in good shape. None of the POWs who came back were missing limbs, btw.

and how many of the dead were missing limbs?

not everyone who crashes a plane, walks away.
 
You want a reason, here you go: Basically, the NVN were promised by Nixon (via Kissinger) that there would be a generous postwar aid package for the North, to the tune of about $3.5 Billion in direct aid, and $1.5 Billion in soft loans (pp. 69-70 of An Enormous Crime), subject to approval by Congress (something that the NVN didn't understand-no President can spend money on something unless Congress approves).

2) In the same year, another Norweigan, on a hike nearby, was briefly detained by local police, who believed he was an escaped American, and was bluntly told "We still have some in our prisons."

The trouble I always have with anecdotes like this is that they seem to assume that the opposite side are morons.

With regard to the first quote, I seriously doubt that the upper echelons of the Communist Party of Vietnam did not understand that the American President was not free to wave his hands and rule by fiat. They might regard it as soft capitalist decadence but I really doubt that they didn't understand how the US worked. The grunts may well have known nothing but the type of people who would be handling negotiations and planning? I'd be willing to bet that they'd be quite familiar with America

With regard to the second one, I also have a hard time believing that a policeman in a Communist dictatorship would be so stupid as to say stuff like that. If nothing else he'd probably be careful to say as little as possible so as not to give his superiors something to hang him with. Admittedly this might have been a single loose-lipped individual but still...

This sort of reasoning always seems to be predicated on the assumption that the other side are mindless robots with no understanding of how their enemies work. The Vietnamese would have known of the role of the American home front in causing the American pullout.

Quite simply I don't think they'd have been moronic enough to keep POWs around for no logical reason. There may well have been some cases like CalBear's hypothetical 50. If cases like that came to the attention of the authorities, let's say in the late 70s, after all the loose ends were tied up, why would they have been kept alive into the 90s as one of your points stated? Logically if cases like that popped up (and some may very well have done so) the simplest thing would be to have the POWs shot and dump them in a swamp somewhere. Keeping them alive just makes things more complicated and that's why I don't buy that argument.
 
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