WI: The Western Roman Empire Survives in Africa and Italy?

The Romans would have to fix the succession problem and the Romans will have to face the fret of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Arab's. It very possible the Romans in the long run create a successful Italian stay or more actually Western Roman Empire but with a lot less territory.
 
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480- WEST ROME SURVIVAL -.png

So I was thinking something along these lines.
 
Now what would be the cultural impact of a surviving WRE? For one Charlemagne won't be crowned emperor, no Frank will as the Imperial Crown is now occupied by someone who resides near the Papacy
 
Now what would be the cultural impact of a surviving WRE? For one Charlemagne won't be crowned emperor, no Frank will as the Imperial Crown is now occupied by someone who resides near the Papacy
I mean, I would say that with a surviving WRE, Charlemagne would never be born. As for the premise, I do find it interesting, although North Africa should be retaken in the first place from the Vandals. You need a POD around Majorian or Nepos to achieve that (so in all likelihood, no Ostrogoths in Italy) before the Empire fell. Now for the cultural impact per se, I would ask @Flavius Iulius Nepos who has one of the best TL on the matter.
 
I think one of the most interesting questions in a surviving WRE scenario is the relationship between the two halves of the empire over time. How long could they continue to view themselves as two parts of the same state? As long as the rivalry between them stops at political intrigues and trying to fill an empty imperial seat with the right candidate it would be a huge boon for both sides. An ERE that never gets involved in a reconquest of the west or faces invasions from Norman Sicily is going to be in much better shape to face the successive waves of migration from the north and match up against Persia. For the WRE if they are secure in the east their only concern would be northern migrations and Berbers to the south. Between Africa and Italy they should have more than enough manpower to defend themselves. There's always the risk that an aggressive emperor tries to retake Spain or Gaul, and brings doom on himself, but in a scenario of peaceful co-existence I would suspect an ERE not deep into a war of their own is going to provide assistance to counter any existential threat.

But maybe this would never happen. Maybe it's inevitable that the ERE demands primacy, or supports an unpopular emperor, or has a religious schism which leads to civil war and invasion on either/both sides. I'd love to hear thoughts from some of experts here on the late antiquity and early medieval periods.
 
I think one of the most interesting questions in a surviving WRE scenario is the relationship between the two halves of the empire over time. How long could they continue to view themselves as two parts of the same state? As long as the rivalry between them stops at political intrigues and trying to fill an empty imperial seat with the right candidate it would be a huge boon for both sides. An ERE that never gets involved in a reconquest of the west or faces invasions from Norman Sicily is going to be in much better shape to face the successive waves of migration from the north and match up against Persia. For the WRE if they are secure in the east their only concern would be northern migrations and Berbers to the south. Between Africa and Italy they should have more than enough manpower to defend themselves. There's always the risk that an aggressive emperor tries to retake Spain or Gaul, and brings doom on himself, but in a scenario of peaceful co-existence I would suspect an ERE not deep into a war of their own is going to provide assistance to counter any existential threat.

But maybe this would never happen. Maybe it's inevitable that the ERE demands primacy, or supports an unpopular emperor, or has a religious schism which leads to civil war and invasion on either/both sides. I'd love to hear thoughts from some of experts here on the late antiquity and early medieval periods.
On another note, How would the church be impacted? Because the western emperor would have a vested interest in having the bishop of Rome as head of the church
 
On another note, How would the church be impacted? Because the western emperor would have a vested interest in having the bishop of Rome as head of the church
I would say quite the opposite: a Western Roman Emperor would definitely pursue Caesaropapism as his Eastern colleague. I would say the Pope ends up just being "Patriarch in the West" and the Patriarch in Constantinople has supremacy in the East. Note that in this scenario there are high chances of the Visigoths and maybe also the Franks staying Arian.
 
I suspect a WRE surviving like that would become pretty much a Italo-Germanic realm. The culture is Italian for the most part and the populace is largely italian by ethnic bulk, but much of the military and its culture is germanic. The Emperors themselves might become germanic eventually.

it would't surprise me if at some point, the Empire was reunified into one, centered around Constantinople. Maybe with the WRE being ruled by a "Consul" of "Co-Emperor" or simply Emperor, who in practice is a Junior Emperor of the Eastern one. Maybe "Western Roman Emperor" becomes their equivalent of "Prince of Wales", a title for the chosen heir, and a place where young heirs to the Purple can get up to speed on how to rule.

If the WRE keeps on for the long haul, I think the Alps becomes full of fortifications. Constant mountain warfare against barbarian invaders.

Another possibility is that a germanic conqueror takes over the WRE and declares himself Emperor. Perhaps someone who already served it in the Foederati, obtained his own power base outside the Empire (say, Galia, Pannonia, Iberia or Germania) and then conquered it with his own army of germanics. Probably a frank. This could result in "Western Roman Empire" becoming a cyclical empire, like China.
 
I suspect a WRE surviving like that would become pretty much a Italo-Germanic realm. The culture is Italian for the most part and the populace is largely italian by ethnic bulk, but much of the military and its culture is germanic. The Emperors themselves might become germanic eventually.

it would't surprise me if at some point, the Empire was reunified into one, centered around Constantinople. Maybe with the WRE being ruled by a "Consul" of "Co-Emperor" or simply Emperor, who in practice is a Junior Emperor of the Eastern one. Maybe "Western Roman Emperor" becomes their equivalent of "Prince of Wales", a title for the chosen heir, and a place where young heirs to the Purple can get up to speed on how to rule.

If the WRE keeps on for the long haul, I think the Alps becomes full of fortifications. Constant mountain warfare against barbarian invaders.

Another possibility is that a germanic conqueror takes over the WRE and declares himself Emperor. Perhaps someone who already served it in the Foederati, obtained his own power base outside the Empire (say, Galia, Pannonia, Iberia or Germania) and then conquered it with his own army of germanics. Probably a frank. This could result in "Western Roman Empire" becoming a cyclical empire, like China.
I am sorry, could you elaborate on the first part? I do not get how the Germanic culture which IOTL, despite two Romano-Germanic kingdoms centered around Italy, one of which lasted 200 years, left only relics of its existence (like, say, the fact that "war" in Italian is "guerra" and not, say, "bello") somehow becomes more dominant despite the survival of the Western Empire (which IMHO is related to relying less on Germanic troops if anything).
Besides, if the WRE survives, it serves better to Constantinople as a junior partner granting stability and commerce in the Central Med; no point in reannexing it (yes, Justinian, I am looking at you). Besides, at some point the language of administration will eventually become Greek anyhow, so we will jut see a different " Rhoman vs Latin" dynamic, which effectively will be a derby.
As for the Alps, a stable allied Burgundian buffer state is a lot better, and if the Frankish realm gets fragmented early on, sky's the limit. I would be interested in seeing a tripartite Med: ERE, WRE, Visigoths (preferably retaining Aquitaine).
 
I remember a Middle Roman Empire thread, where the West consists of Gaul and Hispania and part of Africa, the Middle consists of Italy, Illyria and part of Africa, and the East stays the same. In such scenario, the Middle Empire would be pretty much insulated from existential threats posed by barbarian invasions.
 
the church as a whole is a lot weaker given the fact that it's now subjugated by both empires. But I wonder, might that lead to there not really being a head of church as a concept, and simply having ceasaropapist regimes with local "heads of faith"? Like protestant England and the archbishopric of Canterbury
 
I am sorry, could you elaborate on the first part? I do not get how the Germanic culture which IOTL, despite two Romano-Germanic kingdoms centered around Italy, one of which lasted 200 years, left only relics of its existence (like, say, the fact that "war" in Italian is "guerra" and not, say, "bello") somehow becomes more dominant despite the survival of the Western Empire (which IMHO is related to relying less on Germanic troops if anything).
Besides, if the WRE survives, it serves better to Constantinople as a junior partner granting stability and commerce in the Central Med; no point in reannexing it (yes, Justinian, I am looking at you). Besides, at some point the language of administration will eventually become Greek anyhow, so we will jut see a different " Rhoman vs Latin" dynamic, which effectively will be a derby.
As for the Alps, a stable allied Burgundian buffer state is a lot better, and if the Frankish realm gets fragmented early on, sky's the limit. I would be interested in seeing a tripartite Med: ERE, WRE, Visigoths (preferably retaining Aquitaine).
Why would the administrative language become Greek? The entire powerbase of the WRE resides in Latin spellings areas?
 
I am sorry, could you elaborate on the first part? I do not get how the Germanic culture which IOTL, despite two Romano-Germanic kingdoms centered around Italy, one of which lasted 200 years, left only relics of its existence (like, say, the fact that "war" in Italian is "guerra" and not, say, "bello") somehow becomes more dominant despite the survival of the Western Empire (which IMHO is related to relying less on Germanic troops if anything).
Besides, if the WRE survives, it serves better to Constantinople as a junior partner granting stability and commerce in the Central Med; no point in reannexing it (yes, Justinian, I am looking at you). Besides, at some point the language of administration will eventually become Greek anyhow, so we will jut see a different " Rhoman vs Latin" dynamic, which effectively will be a derby.
As for the Alps, a stable allied Burgundian buffer state is a lot better, and if the Frankish realm gets fragmented early on, sky's the limit. I would be interested in seeing a tripartite Med: ERE, WRE, Visigoths (preferably retaining Aquitaine).
I think he meant to say it will be greek in the east and Latin in the west.
 
I think he meant to say it will be greek in the east and Latin in the west.
But if the elite and senatorial class is common in both halves and Italian born officials frequently get jobs in the east and vice versa, that's a much greater incentive to maintain elite bilingualism and keep the government bilingual
 
But if the elite and senatorial class is common in both halves and Italian born officials frequently get jobs in the east and vice versa, that's a much greater incentive to maintain elite bilingualism and keep the government bilingual
Elite bilingualism might be a thing, but maintaining the government of the East in Latin is just impractical: the population was overwhelmingly Greek-speaking (or Coptic speaking in Egypt). I would say that at most, you get the ERE officially shifting to Greek a bit later than OTL, but not by much. Besides, I do not think there would be a common senatorial class. What may happen is that "being sent to Rome/Constantinople" becomes a quick way to get rid of undesirable Senators without killing them, but why would the numbers of high-ranking officials/senators seeking fortune in the other half being so high as to justify keeping Latin as an official language in Constantinople? It is just more practical that these guys are fluent in Greek.
 
Elite bilingualism might be a thing, but maintaining the government of the East in Latin is just impractical: the population was overwhelmingly Greek-speaking (or Coptic speaking in Egypt). I would say that at most, you get the ERE officially shifting to Greek a bit later than OTL, but not by much. Besides, I do not think there would be a common senatorial class. What may happen is that "being sent to Rome/Constantinople" becomes a quick way to get rid of undesirable Senators without killing them, but why would the numbers of high-ranking officials/senators seeking fortune in the other half being so high as to justify keeping Latin as an official language in Constantinople? It is just more practical that these guys are fluent in Greek.
Given that half the Eastern Roman army was Latin speaking (recruited from the Danubian dioceses of Dacia and Thracia) it's not that implausible a scenario, especially since it gives a neutral language of governance between the religious and culturally diverse regions of Coptic Egypt, Aramaic Levant, along with the Greek heartlands.
 
Now what would be the cultural impact of a surviving WRE? For one Charlemagne won't be crowned emperor, no Frank will as the Imperial Crown is now occupied by someone who resides near the Papacy
I believe it would also depend on what king of monarchy develops in the Western Roman Empire which will in time look to reclaim it's lost territories. There is also the massive succession problem that every prince as a right or legal claim to be made Augustus/emperor. From The creation of the first Roman emperor in 22BC until 1453 with the fall of Constantinople Romans never managed to fix the succession. Unlike the Capations and primogenitor which dominator succession in western and central Europe. I believe one thing that can strengthen the empire is keeping its martial tradition and the creation of castles in the interior to protect the empire. The Romans did building castles but they were mostly used as garrison's and there was very few of them historically. There is also the destruction of the empire will it be imperial or a feudal system we get the word Duke from the position occupied by Roman governors I believe it was spelt as Ducas.
 
Given that half the Eastern Roman army was Latin speaking (recruited from the Danubian dioceses of Dacia and Thracia) it's not that implausible a scenario, especially since it gives a neutral language of governance between the religious and culturally diverse regions of Coptic Egypt, Aramaic Levant, along with the Greek heartlands.
That is true, but after Justinian, this changed a lot due to immigration from Asia to Thracia, so you need to prevent that to keep Latin around. I must admit I had not thought about the Thracians and their impact. I found this in Quora; cannot say how much accuracy there is in the infos here, but it seemed relevant to the discussion.
 
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