WI: The Wegener thesis became the basis of the Kriegsmarine strategy in WW2?

[McPherson]

That very late to actually matter in europe (and we are talking one RN/KM ship so we should I think assume 39-42 or it will be two/three RN/USN for every KM)........and anyway RN/KM will not be such a benign Radar/electronic warfare environment by October 44....assuming 617 hasn't hit them in a Norwegian port already?

(that and your USS San Francisco comment was Oct 42.....)

Benign radar environment... Now that one is funny. Both sides at Surigao used jammers because both sides knew the other had radar. In the 1941-1943 (About when the Os would actually show up according to Plan Zed from Outer Space.), context, the British are a little slow to fit centimetric fire control radar so that means Denmark Strait shooting is radar supported but optically aimed. i think old Holland should have shadowed and waited for night to tackle Lutjens, but he had good reasons for his choices. I would have made different ones. The O Class would have been stupid for another reason. How many Panzer IVs are not going to be made because that steel went into a sink-ex? Or whatever other much more useful endeavor, like razor blades and farm tractors if the Berlin criminal regime was not filled with madmen?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

So when are these O class going to be built then?

On average it took about 4 1/2 years or more for the 4 German Battleships from Keel laid till mission ready

And the OTL 'O's were ordered in 1939 - which assuming that they are all laid down by 1940 gives and in service date of 1944 or more likely never as they will have been cancelled.

And if laid down years before the war then won't the British and Americans (And French) also react with differing choices in their building plans?

 

[McPherson]

In the 1941-1943 (About when the Os would actually show up according to Plan Zed from Outer Space.), context...

And the OTL 'O's were ordered in 1939 - which assuming that they are all laid down by 1940 gives and in service date of 1944 or more likely never as they will have been cancelled.

According to Rader and his plan Zed, the Os were supposed to take 3 to 3 and 1/2 years.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

View attachment 527185

According to Rader and his plan Zed, the Os were supposed to take 3 to 3 and 1/2 years.

Hmm whot?

I am just catching up

None of the German capital ships were built on time (mind you a lot of that about)

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Don't declare war on USA?
German optical sights will make short work of any RN cruiser from a range where the cruiser cannot even hope to touch the O-class.

The USA was about as 'at war with Germany' as it was possible to get without actually being at war in Nov 1941

The USA was not building a continental army for a laugh or supplying Britain and Russia with lots of loot on a whim or building a war industry that would build half of the shooty stuff in WW2 because it was planning on remaining Neutral.

Germany declared war not (just) because Hitler was insane, but because it allowed Germany to interdict US Shipping (Op Drumbeat) and to try and stop it from supplying its enemies.

There was also a hope that Japan was even crazier than it first appeared and would also declare war on Russia.

Germany simply beat the USA to the Punch.

By the time this vaunted O class aka the "Ohne Panzer Quatsch" (Without armor nonsense) Class is rocking its 'superior optical sights' - it would be a tall boy target or more likely not finished before Allied artillery got within range of the ship yards.

 

[BlackDragon98]

This is assuming Wegener took over Raeder's job right after the Nazis came to power.
The O-class would be started 1935, while Bismarck and Scharnhorst are not built.

 

[Theoretical_TJ]

Crazy question. Could you build a 30 knot milch cow/tender for a crapload of E-boat types? Say something that can serve as a mobile support platform for 4-6 operating from each supply ship. Something like that could wreak absolute havoc on allied shipping and be both more and less survivable than the u-boats.

 

[McPherson]

Crazy question. Could you build a 30 knot milch cow/tender for a crapload of E-boat types? Say something that can serve as a mobile support platform for 4-6 operating from each supply ship. Something like that could wreak absolute havoc on allied shipping and be both more and less survivable than the u-boats.

if you were not incompetent and you knew what you were doing? (^^^). It happened. Flattops were/are virtual tankers under a floating airfield. They also pack[ed] a lot of food and spare parts, You're average Bullard was the American version of an ocean going torpedo boat and the Bunker Hill tendered her in this example. The Japanese shipping was havocked and that was decidedly more survivable than any u-boat.

How do you know a navy is incompetent?

The British learned side to side refueling and underway replenishment flattop to cruisers and destroyers the hard way. Earliest known occurrence, was 1942 Med.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

if you were not incompetent and you knew what you were doing? (^^^). it happened.

Mind you it took the USN until the 60s and the Sacramento class to build replenishment ships that were faster than 25 knots and the things had half an Iowa's power plant powering them. As it today the USN has retired the Sacramentos due to their age and has put half the Supply class into reserve with plans to put the other two into reserve as well in couple years because high speed replenishment ships cost quite the pretty penny to run

 

[BlackDragon98]

Mind you it took the USN until the 60s and the Sacramento class to build replenishment ships that were faster than 25 knots and the things had half an Iowa's power plant powering them. As it today the USN has retired the Sacramentos due to their age and has put half the Supply class into reserve with plans to put the other two into reserve as well in couple years because high speed replenishment ships cost quite the pretty penny to run

OTL the Kriegsmarine never built a standardized type of merchant raider. Their fastest one was Hansa and its max was 20.5 kt. Pushing things a bit could create a 25 kt max speed fast logistics ship but that pretty much the max. Liquids in large volumes are pretty heavy.

 

[McPherson]

Mind you it took the USN until the 60s and the Sacramento class to build replenishment ships that were faster than 25 knots and the things had half an Iowa's power plant powering them. As it today the USN has retired the Sacramentos due to their age and has put half the Supply class into reserve with plans to put the other two into reserve as well in couple years because high speed replenishment ships cost quite the pretty penny to run

Unrep is not going anywhere.

T-AO John Lewis Class.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Unrep is not going anywhere.

T-AO John Lewis Class.

I said the USN is retiring its high speed replenishment ships due to cost, the John Lewis class only goes 20 knots and is sorely needed to replace the Henry J. Kaiser class. Of course since the navy is going to build 20 of them to replace the 15 Kaisers which when combined with the Lewis and Clark class's 14 ships means that the USN will have a rather decent replenishment fleet for at least the next 30ish years

 

[Deleted member 94680]

The Germans had underway replenishment tankers in service at the start of the War. The Dithmarschens class eventually had 5 vessels by 1940.

Wegener left the Navy in 1926, so having him in charge in time for WWII is quite a rearrangement of German naval history.

 

[McPherson]

I said the USN is retiring its high speed replenishment ships due to cost, the John Lewis class only goes 20 knots and is sorely needed to replace the Henry J. Kaiser class. Of course since the navy is going to build 20 of them to replace the 15 Kaisers which when combined with the Lewis and Clark class's 14 ships means that the USN will have a rather decent replenishment fleet for at least the next 30ish years

In an age of no-escape weapons that have to be spoofed, the speed is not as important as reserve buoyancy and countermeasures.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

This is assuming Wegener took over Raeder's job right after the Nazis came to power.
The O-class would be started 1935, while Bismarck and Scharnhorst are not built.

So one of the reason the Twins were 9 x 11" armed ships was not just to allow them to be a balanced well armored design but to not 'antagonize' the British by building fast 6 x 15" armed ships.

What are the British going to do in response to this "Ohne Panzer Quatsch" (Without armor nonsense) Class rocking its 'superior optical sights' when they learn in 1935 what the Germans are building?

 

[thaddeus]

Crazy question. Could you build a 30 knot milch cow/tender for a crapload of E-boat types? Say something that can serve as a mobile support platform for 4-6 operating from each supply ship. Something like that could wreak absolute havoc on allied shipping and be both more and less survivable than the u-boats.

if you were not incompetent and you knew what you were doing? (^^^). it happened.

the KM had a well regarded class of supply ships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Northmark, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Conecuh_(AOR-110), https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/history/kms-dithmarschen.htm

the carrier in the above video might be the optimal solution but would be impossible for KM?

 

[thaddeus]

OTL the Kriegsmarine never built a standardized type of merchant raider. Their fastest one was Hansa and its max was 20.5 kt. Pushing things a bit could create a 25 kt max speed fast logistics ship but that pretty much the max. Liquids in large volumes are pretty heavy.

the KM had a well regarded class of supply ships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Northmark, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Conecuh_(AOR-110), https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/history/kms-dithmarschen.htm

the carrier in the above video might be the optimal solution but would be impossible for KM?

had they settled on u-boat warfare it would negate the need for the large Dithmarschen-class or those could be supplemented with a smaller, faster "cousin" with aircraft handling capability, a German version (sort of) of French Commandant Teste?

 

[Astrodragon]

So one of the reason the Twins were 9 x 11" armed ships was not just to allow them to be a balanced well armored design but to not 'antagonize' the British by building fast 6 x 15" armed ships.

What are the British going to do in response to this "Ohne Panzer Quatsch" (Without armor nonsense) Class rocking its 'superior optical sights' when they learn in 1935 what the Germans are building?

As I understand it the plan was to build them with 6x15", but the guns weren't ready. Then the 15" guns went to Bismark and Tirpitz. The plan was to rearm the twins after that, but the gun building capacity wasn't available (it competes with the armies heavy guns).
It wasn't a silly decision, it was always known that the twins would lose to a 15" BB, they weren't suppost to fight heavy ships but to retire and fight another day, because one or two 15" bricks would be highly likely to damage them enough for them to be caught and destroyed. So more 11" guns was a good choice against the expected opponents, heavy cruisers

 

[Astrodragon]

In this case the O-class actually works in Germany's favor.
Just build one O-class to cause panic and make the RN spend all their money on a bunch CVs and other big stuff.
Defense budget will cause that to draw money away from other things.
UK's defenses are overall weaker.
Building naval planes means less land planes.
Hmmm...

Well, first of all you need to get the RN to panic. That isn't easy, especially as it gives them the excuse to force more money out of the treasury.
The RN knew that until the fast KGV class came online, they couldn't catch the fast German capital ships. Their plan was air attack from a carrier, probably not to sink them, but to slow them down enough to be caught.
So the logical (and intended) counter would be additional carriers. Since armour production was already overloaded, the logical counter would be the light carrier (they'd been making paper designs of these for 10 years), something analogous to the Colossus class. While there was a heavy loading on British shipbuilding by 1935/6, there were a number of cruiser-sized slips available for these ships.
The Admiralty would have loved extra money to build these, people keep forgetting just how air-minded the 1930's RN actually was.

 

[Tonrich]

So one of the reason the Twins were 9 x 11" armed ships was not just to allow them to be a balanced well armored design but to not 'antagonize' the British by building fast 6 x 15" armed ships.

What are the British going to do in response to this "Ohne Panzer Quatsch" (Without armor nonsense) Class rocking its 'superior optical sights' when they learn in 1935 what the Germans are building?

Question?
How much yard time would it take to convert a twin from 9-11" to the 6-15". If the turrets and guns are ready to go on land, how long would it take to make the transition? Wouldn't the infrastructure also have to be changed? I'm talking shell magazines and loaders, elevators, whatever. Very curious as I have never really seen an estimate given on this.