WI: The Vatican actively opposes the Axis
- Thread starter LNSS
- Start date
scholar
Banned
Italy, a lot of Germany, Spain, France, etc. were catholic. Italy might annex the Papal State again, but there's no force within that government so stupid or reckless as to think that it could end the Catholic Church or its papacy. If Mussolini does kill off the Pope he better have a well staged arena to shift blame as far away from him as possible.
The College of Cardinals flees to Portugal and elects a new Pope. Mussolini tries to install his own puppet Pope, who gets little sympathy.
Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of anti-Nazi Catholic martyrs across Europe. After the war, the Catholic Church gains much prestige, mostly genuine but also supported by western propaganda as a bulwark against the Soviets. The "Martyrs against Nazism" are canonized and venerated every May 8.
Maybe it's even enough to prevent the secularization of the west from the 1960s.
Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of anti-Nazi Catholic martyrs across Europe. After the war, the Catholic Church gains much prestige, mostly genuine but also supported by western propaganda as a bulwark against the Soviets. The "Martyrs against Nazism" are canonized and venerated every May 8.
Maybe it's even enough to prevent the secularization of the west from the 1960s.
if it's early on and Italo Balbo Isn't exlied, Italy could find itself neutral as he wouldn't want harm his conservative support base, and he could consider leaving the Axis. With Nazi Germany Hitler would risk losing alot of support in Southern Germany and possibly Austria depending on the date.
If it's later on similar results, but it lead to very damaging stability issue with the countries.
If it's later on similar results, but it lead to very damaging stability issue with the countries.
I dunno about an early opposition to the Axis. The Church actively supported Mussolini's conquest of Abyssinia and, even more indefensibly, Japan's occupations in Korea and China (the latter is the reason the PRC used to expel the Catholic Church from China). It was better to deal with the slighter evils of fascism than the infinitely worse evils of the Scary Reds, in their view. IMHO only after 1942 would it be plausible for the Vatican to actively turn against the Axis, and even then it will be incredibly close due to understandably reasons.
At what time, and for what reason?
The Church is very cautious about taking sides in politics, and with good reason.
Some non-Catholics have the notion that the Pope can dictate to any Catholic. That wasn't true even in the Middle Ages.
Then there is the question of what the Church's interest is.
The mission of the Church is to convey the Grace of God to mankind. That's not a poetic phrase. The Grace of God is the gift of salvation from sin and damnation, won for mankind by Jesus Christ when, incarnated as a man, he suffered and died on the cross. By that act, he atoned for all the sins of mankind. But to receive that grace, one must meet certain conditions: repentance of one's sins, and faith in Jesus as Savior.
The Church imposes other conditions: confession, absolution, and Communion, which may be had only through the Church.
In this matter, the Church is concerned with the eternal salvation or damnation of human souls. Compared to that, any temporal concern interest is nothing. The Church therefore cannot risk its spiritual mission for any temporal reason, however grave.
Thus it would have been wrong for the Church to oppose explicitly a secular power with the potential ability to destroy much of the Church's fabric, including its central administration.
For instance, it has been suggested that the Pope should have excommunicated Hitler or placed an interdict on Germany. Leave aside the probable ineffectuality of such acts. What if the response of the Nazi regime was to set up a "Church of Germany" answering to the German government, like the Church of England, with control of all Church facilities and personnel. Henry VIII was excommunicated too, and all that did was reinforce the separation of England. Or the Nazi regime might strike at the Holy See itself.
Either of these responses could hinder the Church's performance of its spiritual mission, which could mean the damnation of thousands or millions of souls, according to Catholic doctrine. Obviously, this would be a risk that the Pope could not take in good conscience.
So the premise of this thread comes close to ASB land.
Note: I am not a Catholic, nor even religious. But the Pope is, and I am examining the question on the basis of Catholic doctrine.
Very good analysis, especially from someone who's not religious.
I COULD see the pope, in theory, opposing the Nazis as being completely contrary to all Christian teaching. He'd not likely use the word satanic. But that would require 1) better knowledge of actual Nazi practices than the probably had, eg extermination camps, 2) put the miillions of catholics in nazi run lands at risk of said camps, 3) depending on how mussolini reacted, probably to hitlers pressure, it could cause great damage to the Church as an institution, and 4) require great personal courage and spiritual clarity.
It would take someone like John Paul II to take that stand, and such a person would not have been elected in that political situation, barring direct divine intervention. IMO.
Paul V McNutt
Banned
If the Germans kill the pope. Catholic including German Catholics would rally against the Nazis.
1. Remember that the 1929 Lateran Treaty - which is what established the Vatican city state - explicitly required the Church to be politically neutral. Actively opposing the Axis would have violated that Treaty. Which might have meant Italian occupation of the Vatican.
Now, whether a mere denunciation of Nazi atrocities would qualify as a violation of Article 24 is harder to say. The Nazis would likely not be generous on that point; the only thing restraining them as it was was the presence of so many Catholic Germans in the armed forces and the population in general.
2. If your point of departure is 1942-43, then you're talking Nazi takeover of the Vatican, with all that entails: The Pope dead or in a Nazi prison, and lots of refugees, Jews included, hidden in Catholic churches and nuncios, that would have been seized and killed.
3. The Vatican actually had a tentative agreement to relocate the Papacy and Curia to Brazil in case of an Axis seizure. But it's doubtful that either Pius XII or much of his Curia could have escaped to it.
Now, whether a mere denunciation of Nazi atrocities would qualify as a violation of Article 24 is harder to say. The Nazis would likely not be generous on that point; the only thing restraining them as it was was the presence of so many Catholic Germans in the armed forces and the population in general.
2. If your point of departure is 1942-43, then you're talking Nazi takeover of the Vatican, with all that entails: The Pope dead or in a Nazi prison, and lots of refugees, Jews included, hidden in Catholic churches and nuncios, that would have been seized and killed.
3. The Vatican actually had a tentative agreement to relocate the Papacy and Curia to Brazil in case of an Axis seizure. But it's doubtful that either Pius XII or much of his Curia could have escaped to it.
Your comment intrigues me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter - aka can you point the interested parties to more information on the subject?
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
If the Vatican opposes the Axis, then how does this affect the Balkans, especially where Dominican, Jesuit and Agustinian friars run the concentration camps in the Independent State of Croatia? How can this also effect the Ustase movement?
Grey Wolf
Donor
In WW1 the Pope was actively humanitarian, his ambassadors (whatever they were called) played politics as well as any other nation's, there was a reasonable state department and intelligence system, and the Papacy as a whole was viewed as intervening only for "good" purposes that neither side could really decry.
IMHO I don't see a WW2 Papacy as being in a position to do anything beyond this, but even this would be an improvement
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
IMHO I don't see a WW2 Papacy as being in a position to do anything beyond this, but even this would be an improvement
Best Regards
Grey Wolf