WI the Turbot War became an actual war?

Also, you got the RN's Harriers wrong. The GR.1 is long gone by 1995, as is the GR.3 used in the Falklands- the GR.5 is in service, with the GR.7 undergoing trials (first operational deployment August 1995, first operational deployment at sea 1997).

The Sea Harrier F/A.2 probably had the best radar/weapons system combination of any European NATO country. I'd certainly take it over the French F-8(FN) any day of the week. IIRC back in the '90s the RN at various times carried air groups of 10 Sea Jets and half a dozen RAF GR.7s, with the Sea King dunkers farmed out to RFA ships.

I think that the Brits would want to support Canada over Spain. We still have cultural and historic ties to Canada, after all Betty is Queen of both the UK and Canada. Any British government that stayed neutral, or worse sided with Spain would face an instant motion of no confidence in the Commons and would be out on its ears.
 
You mean protect the guys who were getting busted for fishing in Canadian waters. I'm pretty sure that British public opinion would have been with us on that, had it actually come to shooting. I bet that had it gone any farther, all that we would have done is seized a few more trawlers and hauled them into halifax or St. johns. And when we were done with them, the seized vessels would have been towed out into deep water and used as target practice for the Navy and/or the Air Force. That is something that we should have done with the ship that we actually did seize.



If we were to wind up sinking anything, it would have been the Spanish warships guarding the thieves (Folks in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia would be using more inflammatory language to describe them) who were cleaning out the Grand Banks.


Actually, the British public opinion at the time (in the West Country, where I was when it happened), was why didnt you sink the bloody trawler and do a proper job of it...! Also had some fishing ports flying Canadian Flags... :) :)

Mind, the west country has never been noted for being particularly PC...:p
 
Well, had our government had the balls to stick two fingers up regarding fishing quotas, and had our fishing communities been as 'politically active' as those in France and Spain, fighting rather than just facing massive decline quite pacifically, we'd have had the same problems with our fishermen going all over the place, fishing wherever they wanted, threatening other fishing boats to clear off.

I do recall a lot of peed-off people wanting the RN - via the govt - to take a much tougher line against French/Spanish fishing fleets. Up to and including shooting at a few of the buggers...
 
Oh, and of course there wouldn't have been a shooting war. Something like the Cod War, possibly, with a few rammings and stuff (pretty dangerous in itself, especially in the North Atlantic) and guns pointed at one another.

While UK public sympathies would naturally be with Canada - even if they started it, which many would in any case like, because they're not Spain - which the govt could not run against too strongly even if it chose to, outside of mealy-mouth speeches that didn't amount to a lot regarding both sides' claims - they'd be no active military involvement on their behalf in some fishing dispute.

Before both sides got told to behave or face sanctions and a deal was struck.
 

Susano

Banned
Before both sides got told to behave or face sanctions and a deal was struck.
I agree, and in such situations naturally most pressure is put on the side perceived to be the agressor, which clearly was Canada (regardless of wether they were in the right or not). Thus most likely a diplomatic emberassment for Canada, Tobin is politically finished, but elsewise life goes on for both sides...
 
I agree, and in such situations naturally most pressure is put on the side perceived to be the agressor, which clearly was Canada (regardless of wether they were in the right or not). Thus most likely a diplomatic emberassment for Canada, Tobin is politically finished, but elsewise life goes on for both sides...

Tobin might be finished in Ottawa, but you can bet that he'd still wind up as Premier of Newfoundland. If Chretien forces him out of parliament, you can be sure that it'll be a cold day in hell before a Liberal wins in Newfoundland. the provincial Liberlas will wind up breaking all ties with the Federal Liberals, and will likely rename themselves. Or Tobin will go Tory and obliterate them in the next provincial election.

You can also bet that Spain won't see a penny from Ottawa for whatever damage they took. They'll have to eat their losses themselves.
 

Susano

Banned
Tobin might be finished in Ottawa, but you can bet that he'd still wind up as Premier of Newfoundland. If Chretien forces him out of parliament, you can be sure that it'll be a cold day in hell before a Liberal wins in Newfoundland. the provincial Liberlas will wind up breaking all ties with the Federal Liberals, and will likely rename themselves. Or Tobin will go Tory and obliterate them in the next provincial election.
Hm, okay, he could build a career in Newfoundland on his dumb... err, sorry, tough image, but youre really exaggerating with the rest. I may be wrong, but I dont think Canada has a history of entire provincial sections of parties leaving said party.

You can also bet that Spain won't see a penny from Ottawa for whatever damage they took. They'll have to eat their losses themselves.
That depends entirely on the pressure levied on Canada. Most likely it will be forced to pay compensations to end the crisis. As said, the wider world doesnt care if Spaniards or Canadians fish in those waters, it only cares that there is no military conflict, and hence they will pressure the agressor. Most likely things will be the other way: Canada compensates Spain in full, and in return Spain makes some vague promises about fishing nets (which it will breakk rather sooner than later).
 
Thinking about it, does the Spanish Navy actually have any RAS capability?

And even if it does, going to lose a lot of hoses if they keep getting hazed by Canadian or RN ships, who can refuel in Halifax...

RAS is quite exciting enough on its own in the North Atlantic, without anyone mucking about with you at the same time....
 
Hm, okay, he could build a career in Newfoundland on his dumb... err, sorry, tough image, but youre really exaggerating with the rest. I may be wrong, but I dont think Canada has a history of entire provincial sections of parties leaving said party.

It is rare, but it does happen. Danny Williams (the current Tory premier of Newfoundland) managed to crush the Federal Tories in Newfoundland recently due to a perceived betrayal. The Alberta Liberal Party is in no way affiliated with the Liberal Party of Canada (broke away from them inthe early 1980s), and is considering a name change as merely becoming independent of the LPC wasn't enough to save them. The British Columbia Liberal Party is not affiliated with the LPC, and indeed usually backed the Reform Party/Canadian Alliance/Conservative PArty of Canada.

That depends entirely on the pressure levied on Canada. Most likely it will be forced to pay compensations to end the crisis. As said, the wider world doesnt care if Spaniards or Canadians fish in those waters, it only cares that there is no military conflict, and hence they will pressure the agressor. Most likely things will be the other way: Canada compensates Spain in full, and in return Spain makes some vague promises about fishing nets (which it will breakk rather sooner than later).

I doubt that Chretien would be willing to go against the general public. If he did, Preston Manning would obviously know better than to follow in Chretien's footsteps after seeing how he (Manning) managed to win the election. And whether or not Canada has to pay up in the first place depends on how much good Ottawa's PR campaign does in the US. IOTL Tobin did a good job (put on a good show) in New York. I bet the Foreign Affairs professionals could be even better in Washington. And if we were actually going to fight, Ottawa would have first made sure that the US would at worst be sitting on their hands and enjoying the fireworks. At best Canada would have quiet support from the US.
 
Why does every possible naval scenario involve both sides having all their resources to hand, all acting to spec., meeting in open ocean for some sort of mini-Jutland?

It really wouldn't happen. Wars can happen without being declared and without a shot being fired.


As said: throughout much of the Anglosphere it'd be a kneejerk "Ya-boo sucks to naughty Spanish fishermen!" in the press and in the pub; while politicians of all sides sorted it out very quickly, especially those in Ottowa and Madrid and Washington.
 
Spanish are famed in the UK for quite a few things they never did, like throwing donkeys off church towers (there is a throwing of a goat off a church tower in Zamora, but to a safety blanket held by the village people(1)), throwing darts at bulls to do a bullseye -the turn of phrase doesn't exist in Spanish nor darts are popular-...

It must be the hairy armpits giving them the idea that the Spanish just came out of the caves. And in some places they have. Check Guadix in Granada out.

(1) Now that's an image: the policeman, the construction worker, the biker, the soldier, the cowboy and the indian holding a blanket and awaiting the fall of a goat...

But in this case I don;t think there is any doubt that the Spanish were fishing illegally, both in Canadian waters and in terms of using illegal nets. As Dr. Strangelove says its technically piracy, he's just wrong about who's flying the Jolly Roger.;)

In the unlikely event that Spain had been stupid enough to have tried using force then I think Astrodragon and JN1 are right that the British government wouldn't have had much choice in the matter. Public opinion would have been inflamed enough to forced even the chronically corrupt and myoptic egomaniacs who generally infest our government to stand alongside the Canadians.

You do realise your will be giving some religious neo-cons seizures about the idea of the aforesaid group holding a blanket and waiting for a goat. With their warped minds they'll automatically assume the worst.:D:p

Steve
 
But in this case I don;t think there is any doubt that the Spanish were fishing illegally, both in Canadian waters and in terms of using illegal nets. As Dr. Strangelove says its technically piracy, he's just wrong about who's flying the Jolly Roger.;)

On the contrary, there are doubts as to whether they were on the exclusion zone or just outside in international waters.

If outside, taking into account at the time there were no EU, Spanish or Portuguese mesh size regulations for turbot fishing, the claim that they were illegal nets is not valid. International waters? No binding regulations from the countries of origin? They could have fished with fishnet stockings.

Which is disgraceful. One good thing to come out of that is precisely that the EU did eventually agree on the mesh size to fish mostly everything. More attention and vigilance is being done, which can only be good.

If they were inside the EEZ, good job, well done.

Which is why as a result of that, fishing boats need to have GPS and transmitters. To enforce fair play on both sides. Spanish ships don't step where they shouldn't and Canadian warships don't start playing cops and robbers outside of jursidiction.

However, I have seen no proof to say they were IN the EEZ when the apprehension attempt started.

In the unlikely event that Spain had been stupid enough to have tried using force

I used to think that no modern Spanish government could be that idiotic. And then I saw the handling of the Perejil incident. Had the incident happened in 2003 I would not be so sure.

then I think Astrodragon and JN1 are right that the British government wouldn't have had much choice in the matter. Public opinion would have been inflamed enough to forced even the chronically corrupt and myoptic egomaniacs who generally infest our government to stand alongside the Canadians.

I agree as well.

Which is what the Canadian government was counting on when they gave their ships powers to patrol international waters to protect the fishing resources.

Was it necessary to give such powers? Yes, because at this rate soon there would be no more fish to catch.

Were those powers legally enforceable in an international court of law? Nope.

Which is why it was necessary that the issue was decided in the court of public opinion first.

Where Canada, right or wrong, can count on the active support of the Irish and the UK.

The likes of the Daily Mail, Daily Star and the Sun who would think it's Christmas, the Death of the People's Princess all rolled into one. Pity there's not a What-If department in those newspapers, because the headlines would have been worth reading.

And because the countries that most would lose (Spain and Portugal) have no friends when it comes to fishing treaties, and quite a few rivals that would like to see them taken down a few pegs in the pecking order.

The end result would have been the same though: GPS and transmitters for everybody, regulations in mesh sizes for everything and more vigilance. Which is good.

It was necessary since it speeded up the process.

It was still a dirty trick.

You do realise your will be giving some religious neo-cons seizures about the idea of the aforesaid group holding a blanket and waiting for a goat. With their warped minds they'll automatically assume the worst.:D:p

Steve

Glad to be of service.

It can be improved. Given the anti-Catholicism of many of them I feel a haiku coming on!

The Village People:
Catholic church, scared goat,
A happy result!

Phenobarbital is on the child-proof bottle with the blue dot...
 
Granted it would have been an act of monumental stupidity for Spain to try and project force that far. Only 2 navies have ever done it, and Spain wasnt one of them...But this is politicians we are talking about - if Spain decides its a matter of honour.
And the Canadians would consider it a matter of principle...

(you think this is unlikely? Look at the Falklands....).
 
Gentlemen, for a WHAT IF Spain vs Canada 1995 Fletan (Halibut) war need to involve NATO, USA, UK, EU?

In an armed conflict between these two countries, no one would get involved, too many interests at stake for everyone.

Facts:

1 - Cod in Canadian waters plunder own ZEE.
2 - Canadian Fleet Atlantic halibut ever caught until he saw that other countries with good boats and gear did.
3 - Spanish fleet was fishing in international waters, not ZEE.
4 - Tovin Minister lied about the size of fish and nets. Photo minister is with Katuxa baby fish, not Halibut.
5 - It was not necessary small mesh nets to fish for halibut because the fishery was still very well.
6 - Canada had no ships or technology at that time to fish for halibut, is in very deep water. Look at videos of Stai
7 - Canada launched military actions against civilian vessels in international waters and came to declare war, that's just piracy in any language, said the ambassador of Spain.
8 - Spain sent small coastal patrol vessels to protect ships, not war mission. Never acted antagonistically against Canadian military ships, they placed in the middle only to prevent network outages (very dangerous and irresponsible maneuvering Navy Canada) and collision.
9 - Politics of the opposition in Spain want to send group called ALFA
(PA aircraft carriers, frigates and submarines AA and ASW), but the government refused to avoid escalating conflict (we also have these things)
10-Spain decided to give in the way of acting irresponsible, immature illegal and a government ally, and use international organizations to defend their interests. Yet the Minister of Fisheries ordered further military action. He plans to use its CF-18 frigates and patrol boats and submarines against Spanish, only the direct intervention of the Prime Minister managed to stop everything. Tobin the only thing he wanted was fame and prestige for use in politics.

Finally, as information, only for a "WHAT IF" Spain vs Canada, at this time the Spanish fleet of war, we call "Armada" is far superior to the fleet finishing Canadá. We have LHD Juan Carlos I + PA Prince of Asturias + 5 frigates AEGIS F-100, +6 Frigate F-80 AA and ASW + 4 submarine SSK S-70 (4 S-80 SSK-AIP ready to cruise missiles. Approaching by air would be suicide against the bubble formed by the AEGIS , and submarines would have to be very careful. Finally a fleet at sea is not like land bases, we must first locate that has the good habit of not being quiet.


We acted wrong with a goat or bull ... and you with the seals? or hunting of wild animals?

Do you feel if Spain had "arrested" a canada ship-tank oil in the Strait of Gibraltar or other types of vessels with any excuse "ecological" for example?. Piracy not it be this? understand that could take precedence? understand that we could have blocked a good part of its business easily?. Just close the Straits in case of conflict, is one of the militar maneuvers that are tested based here.USA has shared with us in Rota precisely because of the strategic importance of that area.

Currently "The Armada" is one of the few forces worldwide with a decent projection capability.

Finally: I think, is ethical play with the number of deaths that could have in the event of a terrorist attack in Al is in Spain?

Fellatio Nelson: In a war in the middle of the Atlantic 1 vs 1 you lead a hard day, try a what if this premise.

hsthompson: Parsley "Perejil" was really a matter of honor. The status quo was that neither Spain nor Morocco claimed the island for not even worth a discussion. When Morocco broke the treaty was a matter of honor and not yield to a Moroccan position of strength, like the Falklands case.


Forget the clichés and stereotypes. Spain is a country with great history that has had ups and downs like everyone else. We have our traditions, customs, monuments, meals etc. .. But we are a civilized country, I assure you we do not live in caves and that are usually preserved by tradition, like castles, churches, cathedrals, aqueducts and other monuments .. . ops, I forgot that you have nothing of what I said earlier.

You should take a greeting and a Spanish wine and paella from time to time which is very good.

A greeting. :D
 
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