I think people get hung up on the Treasure Ships themselves in such a way of thinking that BIGGER IS BETTER and that the Ming could not have still retired the Treasure Ships and maintained a strong Naval Presence from the Kurils to Indonesia or Sri Lanka.
What if the Ming never turned inward? What if Zheng He's great treasure fleet was never burned?
It is distinctly possible that the Chinese would have found the "Spice Islands" well before the Portuguese. If so, the entire history of the western world may have been changed.
The Ming Emperor at this time is busy trying to prove he can be a lord over the Mongols in the north and the Vietnamese in the south. This is a reason that people are forgetting: there's not enough money for the treasure ships while a great number of costly military campaigns are going on.What was the emperor about other than prestige. The Mandate of Heaven decreed that the Emperor was the lord of the world. He needed to prove that.
How? You said yourself, China's maritime policy wasn't about taking over buyt excecizing their influence as much it was possible.
Giving they didn't have any vital or important interest on India, compared to South-East Asia,it's not even a given that they would encounter portuguese traders there in first place.
Even if it was the case, I don't see how it change western history so radically.
Except if they decide to launch a maritime expedition in India against Portuguese traders only for trolling them with a costly and useless (for them expedition), the changes would have been...limited.
I don't get what you mean by "Spice Islands", are you mentioning Indonesia? Then yes, you would have a greater chinese influence over there, of course, but it wasn't an objective of portuguese traders, at least not before the XVI century and mostly in the objective to have trading posts with China.
Not really : Portuguese created a power vaacum by bombing cities that refused to trade with them and by crushing Islamic commercial hegemony in the region.The Portuguese entered a power vacuum in the Indian Ocean. An Active China could have well stopped them in their tracks.
Would have they tried that if China managed to create economical outposts in Indonesia? Remember that the impetus wasn't at first to take and conquer for the lulz of it, but to have all the upper hand on trade between Indias (in the largest sense) and Europe.Not likely, but the Portuguese may have found it harder to continue their eastward drive across the Indian Ocean.
We had this conversation before : having legends about something doesn't mean you fully or even partially believe them.A total mystery to the Europeans who surrounded the source of these spices with fantastic legends.
China never really played a that important role on Indian Sea, and ceased to directly intervene on Central Asia fater Battle of Talas.An important factor in this premise is that China continues to look outward and remains an active participant in world affairs. Much of what happened in Asia during the "Age of Exploration" was partially due to the absence of China as a major player.
Not really : Portuguese created a power vaacum by bombing cities that refused to trade with them and by crushing Islamic commercial hegemony in the region.
Even at its maritime peak, China contended itself to establish formal diplomatic ties.
It's simply that Ming didn't have nearly as the same impetus into an anctual commercial hegemony on India than Portuguese : after all while the latter needed to overcome Islamic-Italian monopoly on Eastern Mediterranean/Red Sea trade road by huge maritime expeditions to India; China had a direct trade relation by land.
I simply fail to see what would be the conflict motivation, as Portugal never tried to take control of Indian production, but of Indian trade towards Europe.
Hell, it's not like the end of chinese great maritime expedition even put an end to maritime trade with India IOTL.
And contacts with Africa and Arabia were more about prestige matters than actually trying to vassalize or gain an hegemony on them. At best, Zheng He was making a point, and when conflicts arose, it was always in reaction of local hostility and/or to support one side in an ongoing war (not unlike Portugal supported Ethiopians OTL without real geopolitical benefit).
Would have they tried that if China managed to create economical outposts in Indonesia? Remember that the impetus wasn't at first to take and conquer for the lulz of it, but to have all the upper hand on trade between Indias (in the largest sense) and Europe.
We had this conversation before : having legends about something doesn't mean you fully or even partially believe them.
Are you seriously believing that there's actually a supernatural living being called Santa Claus magically distributing gifts every Christmas? Probably not.
Still, this myth is particularly present in western culture, and an alien spectator would be a bit at miss.
While admittedly vague about it, and mixing facts, obsolete situations, and diverse stories about it (mostly because "Meh' economical and productive matters are boring. Let's put some unicorn on that"), Europeans had a good enough idea on where to find it. Not that of a "total mystery" but more of "This place far away we don't know much about".
I don't know what you're talking about here, unfortunatly, as you quoted my entiere post.No Our Ming didn’t, and the Ming of the OP is obviously a different Ming. India was not the only jewel of trade in the Indian Ocean. Malacca, Indonesia, Ceylon (Sri Lanka) would be prizes as well.
Many Chinese merchants chose to settle down in the Southeast Asian ports such as Champa, Cambodia, Sumatra, and Java, and married the native women. Their children carried on trade.[2][3]
Java: Zheng He's (Chinese: 鄭和) compatriot Ma Huan (Chinese: 马欢) recorded in his book (Chinese: zh:瀛涯胜览) that large numbers of Chinese lived in the Majapahit Empire on Java, especially in Surabaya (Chinese: 泗水). The place where the Chinese lived was called New Village (Chinese: 新村), with many originally from Canton, Zhangzhou and Quanzhou.
Cambodia: Envoy of Yuan dynasty, Zhou Daguan (Chinese: 周达观) recorded in his The Customs of Chenla (Chinese: 真腊风土记), that there were many Chinese, especially sailors, who lived there. Many intermarried with the local women.
Champa: the Daoyi Zhilue documents Chinese merchants who went to Cham ports in Champa, married Cham women, to whom they regularly returned to after trading voyages.[4] A Chinese merchant from Quanzhou, Wang Yuanmao, traded extensively with Champa, and married a Cham princess.[5]
Siam: According to the clan chart of family name Lim, Gan, Ng, Khaw, Cheah, many Chinese traders lived there. They were amongst some of the Siamese envoys sent to China.
Borneo: Many Chinese lived there as recorded by Zheng He.
Ryūkyū Kingdom: Many Chinese moved to Ryukyu to serve the government or engage in business during this period. The Ming dynasty Chinese sent from Fujian 36 Chinese families at the request of the Ryukyuan King to manage oceanic dealings in the kingdom in 1392 during the Hongwu Emperor's reign. Many Ryukyuan officials were descended from these Chinese immigrants, being born in China or having Chinese grandfathers.[6] They assisted in the Ryukyuans in advancing their technology and diplomatic relations.[7][8][9]
In 1405, under the Ming dynasty, Tan Sheng Shou, the Battalion Commander Yang Xin (Chinese: 杨欣) and others were sent to Java's Old Port (Palembang; Chinese: 旧港) to bring the absconder Liang Dao Ming (Chinese: 梁道明) and others to negotiate pacification. He took his family and fled to live in this place, where he remained for many years. Thousands of military personnel and civilians from Guangdong and Fujian followed him there and chose Dao Ming as their leader.
No, Portugal never really managed to do that. They controlled a local production, once they controlled commercial outposts, but these were hardly the only production centers (at best, centers for production that was already sold to Arabo-European markets before Portuguese came in).I believe that the Portuguese did try to gain control of Indian pepper production, they most definitely tried to control the production of Nutmeg and Mace and of course they wanted control of European trade.
There's a difference between taking on Arabs that monopolized trade trough Near East to Europe, and taking on China that had no role whatsoever in this trade, and wouldn't have tried to monopolize India-Europe trade or had control of outposts or places that could have threatened Portuguese commercial hegemony for this particular trade.One of the ways the controlled the trade was by controlling Entrepots and bottle necks. Malacca specifically for example, and there repeated assaults on Oman and Yemen
Again with the legend stuff...Back to the Portuguese in Ethiopia…The reason they were there, under royal auspices and carrying messages from the King, is that they were looking for Prester John. A legend if ever there was one.
Dead explorers can't tell their story, meaning someone else did that.Take all the legends of unknown, lost worlds that have led experienced explorers to their deaths. Just because it is legend or myth does not mean that it is unbelievable.
Then again, you just have to look up to books on Asia that were sort of best-selling in late medieval era.Unfortunately, they had little or no idea where much of this stuff came from and how it got to the markets where they bought it. So they built on what they knew…and in many cases, all they knew was legned.
Introduction to the historical context for studies of relations between France and India during Middle Ages - Samuel Berthet said:Regarding reception of Indias in medieval France, it's hard to speculate on possible contacts between traders or sailors of french coast with their counterparts, indians, or at least intermediaries of these ones.
Trough litterary production, Indias are nevertheless well present in France. It's a well known fact that the most famous trail tale of Middle Ages, a tale that notably tell about Indias, Marco Polo's, is written in french by a jail companion of the author.
[...]
Marco Polo's tale participate of a geographical context that see from one side outposts between West and East established along Silk Road (essentially terrestrial wars trough Middle-East) and Spices Roads (combined terrestrial and maritime ways trough Indian Sea), but as well great turmoil in Arabo-Persic world after Mongol empire expension.
It put in question the established balances, his representents being seen not only as partners having to be taken on consideration, but also as a break into islamic world on which Christian world may count on.
If eventually, rivalities of both sides take the upper hand, it's the occasion to send expedition and religious missions in order to stuty religious disposition in territories takenover by Mongols and their possible allies.
Priest Jogn legend - a christian king that would have ruled over Ethiopia, Indias or a Central Asian region, cristallize entierly this idea and its ambiguities.
In its this context that Marco Polo's expedition takes place, and certainly Jourdain de Séverac's as well.
So, in the middle of XIVth century, a french missionary left Persia with other dominican friars to China are arrested and killed at Tana, close to Bombay. Only survivor, Jourdain, not discouraged, continue his periple in India and lives on Gujerat and Kerala, particularly at Quilon.
Once back in Europe, he give an account of his dale, under the title Mirabilia Descripta, a manuscript still avaible in National Library archives of London.
Jourdain de Séverac (Jordan Catala de Sévérac)'s adventures doesn't stop there, as he obtained from the pope the charge of Quilon bishopry, as well of Colombo sea in 1330, later named archbishop of Persia and go organzing under his patronage the religious communauty of Quilon/Kulam.
The text left by Jourdain de Séverac, according Catherine Gadrat, author of a thesis on Mirabilia Descripta "is a good exemple of links that may exist between medieval encylopedic accounts of the world's wonders and trail's account. Within mirabilia tradition, Jordan doesn't pretend to reject wonders, but seek to integrate them in a reality considered as wonderful.
He show a curiosity and a capacity to wonder both remarkables."
She underlines the particular interest given by the author to plants and animals, rather than towns.
Is Jourdain de Séverac an unic exemple, or rather the only one whom existance came up to our day? It's established that the road between France and Indias existed, as someone used it twice.
It's perfectly reasonable that some french voyagers may have gone to Indian sub-continent, either volontary as Séverac, or by accident a bit as the venetian Niccolo da Manucci two centuries later.
Probably voyagers established in Near East had continued their trips to Indian Sea, either free or enslaved. It musn't be forgotten that such trip implied constraints that didn't always motivated them to publy their adventures, notably a necessary conversion to Islam as it happened for Niccolo de Conti.
I don't know what you're talking about here, unfortunatly, as you quoted my entiere post.
Assuming (sorry if I'm mistaken) that you mean Ming didn't had maritime relations with Indias before and after great Junks went to the paradise of ships, you're wrong. Directly or indirectly, legal or illegal (Haijin being unnapliable in its entierty), it provoked the creation of Chinese "diaspora" in Asiatic S-E.
For the different Ming part, I would disagree with this allohistorical "methodology", if we want something plausible (aka Rule of Cool, being ruled out). TTL Ming policy wouldn't came out of nowhere, as if all the Chinese civilisation touched by the Hand of God have a total change of mind and heart.
In short, they would be largely similar to "our" Mings, with similar ideas and objectives, just artificially giving them a small push to one direction. I don't excpect TTL China acting totally "OOC".
No, Portugal never really managed to do that. They controlled a local production, once they controlled commercial outposts, but these were hardly the only production centers (at best, centers for production that was already sold to Arabo-European markets before Portuguese came in).
The proportion of spices that went to China in the same period than Portuguese hegemony on Indian Sea is estimated being between 1/4 or 1/3 of the total indian production.
There's a difference between taking on Arabs that monopolized trade trough Near East to Europe, and taking on China that had no role whatsoever in this trade, and wouldn't have tried to monopolize India-Europe trade or had control of outposts or places that could have threatened Portuguese commercial hegemony for this particular trade.
They were there to trade directly with producers, and get rid of costly intermediaries. At this point, I don't see a single reason, critically from a more trading-minded Ming China, to prevent Portuguese founding outpost in Indonesia as they did OTL in "mainland" China in 1514.
OTL and much probably ITTL as well Portuguese and Chinese trade were more complementary than rivals. China would certainly enjoy an even more dominating position on this trade than IOTL, but it wouldn't really lead to middle-term radical changes for Portugal.
Again with the legend stuff...
Yes, one of the impulse was to find a local ally against Arabs, traditionally identified as Priest John. I gave you that (while Priest John myth is more a result of European trails in Asia, a personnification of the possibilities they saw there than a previously existing legend).
The other, and probably the main one, was to reach Calicut trough the traditional road trough Red Sea, recknognizing the trade ways of their rivals for Indias/Europe trade.
When they managed to get there, they quickly understood that, no, the handful of more or less heretical Ethiopians in their way to be crushed by their Islamic neighbours weren't the Priest John that supposedly sent a letter claiming he would be able to take on Arabs.
Depsite that, and depsite the fact this road became more and more uninteresting with a more regular circumnavigating way, Portugal still send some help to make a point to Arabs ("We"re in charge now"), their own population and neighbours ("We're the real defensors of Christiendom") as well for ideological reason.
As Ming China had a fleet, and had a maritime policy before and after its great expeditions, I don't see how it would have been that of a radical change of mind.. The point you may have missed is that I am speaking of a different mindset on the part of the Ming. In order to retain the fleet, with or without the treasure ships, they would have needed to look outward. This is a fundamental difference in global view.
But I did agree from that on the very first post I made on the topic : Portuguese did in order to chase of Arabo-Islamic traders that they couldn't have chased if they had made a more peaceful approach.I agree that I got their occupation of the Banda Islands incorrect. However they were still conquering ports and terrritories in order to control the trade.
Ah, I'm sorry, I was referring to the pepper production control, not mace or nutmeg. My bad.
There is no point in China dominating India/Europe trade. Malacca was a very important entrepot for China. A more activist trading China would have looked badly on having that wrested from their influence. The Portuguese were difficult trading partners at best and I do not know how tolerant an activist China would be of their shenanigans
No, why I did bring this exemple wasn't for that : my point was to show that military expedition or demonstrations in Indian Ocean whatever by Chinese or Europeans weren't always related to direct tentatives of hegemony or vassalization.But the point is not why they went to Ethiopia, but that they honestly believed that it was the kingdom of Prester John. That is the point of that discussion.
It wasn't my point. Masses wouldn't have access to what remained expensive books, and lucky if they heard about this sort of things, even in urban settings.Of course many of the fantastical tales told in the Middle ages were intendeed for the masses
Actually, I didn't : you edited your post quite an hour after my answer. But that's okay, and I hope I get most of it.I hope this was more readable and hope you saw the edit of my previous post.