WI: The Tarascans save the Aztecs

When the Spaniards arrived in Tenochtitlan, Moctezuma asked his greatest rival, King Zuangua of the Tarascans, for aid in the case there was war.

Zuangua thought that Moctezuma would use the Tarascan troops as fodder to defeat the Spaniards then conquer his own kingdom. He rebuffed the Aztec ambassadors, saying that the Aztecs had brought ruin upon themselves because "they merely sang songs to their gods, instead of carrying wood to their temples to keep the fires burning." (Tarascan temples had ever-burning fires.)

After Moctezuma was killed and the Spaniards besieged the city of Tenochtitlan, the Aztecs again asked the Tarascans for help. Zuangua had died of smallpox, and his son Tzintzicha Tangaxoan was now king. The Aztec ambassadors didn't know this and asked to meet Zuangua.

Tzintzicha Tangaxoan said "Alright," then executed every Aztec so that they could meet Zuangua in the afterlife.

Then the Aztecs surrendered and the Tarascans were conquered.

What if Zuangua had decided to choose the devil he knew before the devil he didn't and together defeated Cortes?
 
When the Spaniards arrived in Tenochtitlan, Moctezuma asked his greatest rival, King Zuangua of the Tarascans, for aid in the case there was war.

Zuangua thought that Moctezuma would use the Tarascan troops as fodder to defeat the Spaniards then conquer his own kingdom. He rebuffed the Aztec ambassadors, saying that the Aztecs had brought ruin upon themselves because "they merely sang songs to their gods, instead of carrying wood to their temples to keep the fires burning." (Tarascan temples had ever-burning fires.)

After Moctezuma was killed and the Spaniards besieged the city of Tenochtitlan, the Aztecs again asked the Tarascans for help. Zuangua had died of smallpox, and his son Tzintzicha Tangaxoan was now king. The Aztec ambassadors didn't know this and asked to meet Zuangua.

Tzintzicha Tangaxoan said "Alright," then executed every Aztec so that they could meet Zuangua in the afterlife.

Then the Aztecs surrendered and the Tarascans were conquered.

What if Zuangua had decided to choose the devil he knew before the devil he didn't and together defeated Cortes?
Sounds like he was gonna execute them anyway,regardless of how they answered.
 
You probably need Zuangua to still be alive then.
Zuangua was reluctant to help the Aztecs, he thought it was either
  1. An Aztec attempt to use the Tarascans as fodder to kill the Spaniards, then conquer the Tarascans
  2. An Aztec attempt to appease the Spaniards by offering large numbers of Tarascans for the Spaniards to sacrifice to their god
The POD is what if his attitude was different.
 
If the Tarascans + Aztecs defeat Cortes, then I wonder how they will treat the Tlaxcalans who were allied with him. Would the Tarascans also go to war with them or, once the Spanish threat is gone, would they let the Aztecs deal with the Tlaxcalans by themselves (unless they have beef with the Tlaxcalans as well) ?

Tzintzicha Tangaxoan said "Alright," then executed every Aztec so that they could meet Zuangua in the afterlife.

Proper sense of humour
 
PoD is the Tarascans have some reason to "get" that the Spanish are a unique threat. Perhaps have Tarascan embassy on hand in 1519-1520 to report "no, the Aztecs aren't just B.S.ing."

I too like the Tarascan's sense of humor.

As for the Tlaxcalans all depends on how weakened the Aztecs are at the end of this.
 

yourworstnightmare

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If the Tarascans + Aztecs defeat Cortes, then I wonder how they will treat the Tlaxcalans who were allied with him. Would the Tarascans also go to war with them or, once the Spanish threat is gone, would they let the Aztecs deal with the Tlaxcalans by themselves (unless they have beef with the Tlaxcalans as well) ?



Proper sense of humour
My guess is that as soon as Cortes is defeated the question would be who is the first to backstab the other.
 
My guess is that as soon as Cortes is defeated the question would be who is the first to backstab the other.

And then the Spanish come back really pissed because of what happened to Cortes and his men. I don't think this radically changes the conquest of Mexico since surely some stragglers will make it back to report on this fantastic city prompting a renewed attempt at subjugating them.
 

yourworstnightmare

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Donor
And then the Spanish come back really pissed because of what happened to Cortes and his men. I don't think this radically changes the conquest of Mexico since surely some stragglers will make it back to report on this fantastic city prompting a renewed attempt at subjugating them.
Well the Spanish crown was already pissed at Cortes for going conquering without permission, but yeah, this would be losing face majorly. They would feel compelled to make a punitive expedition.
 
Well the Spanish crown was already pissed at Cortes for going conquering without permission, but yeah, this would be losing face majorly. They would feel compelled to make a punitive expedition.
Depending on how long it takes, other natives may be unwilling to join the Spanish after seeing plagues breaking out as a result of contact. Or it could be reverse, the gods are punishing them because they failed their messengers? In any event, the world view of the mesoamerican nations has been shaken.

If the Aztecs can convince the Tarascans to form a longer termed alliance to punish the Tlaxcalans in exchange for access to trade deeper into the Empire's sphere, the minor city states might think twice before allying with the Spanish.

La Malinche informed Cortes about an impending attack from Cholula. The Aztecs managed to convince the people of Cholula to attack in 1519. The alleged plot was to kill the Spaniards in their sleep, but someone told Malinche and she told Cortes. What if Malinche aided the Cholula. If Cortes dies or if he lives, the conquistadors decide to march against the Aztec. The Aztecs manage to resist (since there's no quartering of the Conquistadors in Mexico City ITTL) the Spaniards have to organize an army with the Tlaxcala. But the Aztecs get the Tarascans in exchange for several concessions on behalf of the Aztecs. I imagine they would have lost a battle already making the Aztecs more willing to bribe the Tarascans into helping. By 1520 Velazquez' men arrive to arrest Cortes, but instead find his men engaged in a war.

The question is, does he cut a deal with the Aztecs to arrest Cortes and his men? What if he did die at Cholula? Will he just take advantage of the situation and co-opt Cortes' men with the aim of turning Tlaxcala into a protectorate? Would the outbreak of Smallpox in Tenochtitlan be butterflied away?

Assuming Cortes did die (maybe stabbed in his sleep due to the efforts of Malinche) Naez's death/capture can be butterflied away as well. So he has to decide what to do, enter a war with an unknown empire, or take Cortes' men and keep ties with Tlaxcala in the hopes of having a foothold in a new land with potential allies? The Tarascans had a large army, so to fight would be a bit unwise even with combining forces with Cortes' men and the Tlaxcalan. Naez arrests some of Cortes' lackies and conscripts the rest. Spain sends word that, maybe Cortes was on to something.

So The Aztec get a few more years of independence as Naez settles down near the coast in Veracruz. In the meantime the Tarascans help the Aztecs take out the Tlaxcalan and then the Tarascans say "We did our part, now give us what we want and we'll go our separate ways". A second expidition comes demanding reparations for the loss of life the Spanish got, and tribute as well as recognition of a new colony in Veracruz and Tlaxcala territory. There's war, there's smallpox, the Tarascans make peace, and Aztec falls in the late 1520's. Tarascans last longer as independent until the plagues get them too. I say new Spain still happens, just a little later.

That's my take.
 
What if Zuangua had decided to choose the devil he knew before the devil he didn't and together defeated Cortes?

I feel like those are separate clauses. One: can Tarascans change their minds; Two: is that enough to defeat the Spanish before reinforcements arrive? When did the negotiation happen?

Once reinforcements start arriving and the smallpox really gets going I'm not sure there's that much to be done. Nuno de Guzman usurped control over Tarascan state even though it previously had an understanding with New Spain's government and had lots of time to prepare, after all.
 
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yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Depending on how long it takes, other natives may be unwilling to join the Spanish after seeing plagues breaking out as a result of contact. Or it could be reverse, the gods are punishing them because they failed their messengers? In any event, the world view of the mesoamerican nations has been shaken.

If the Aztecs can convince the Tarascans to form a longer termed alliance to punish the Tlaxcalans in exchange for access to trade deeper into the Empire's sphere, the minor city states might think twice before allying with the Spanish.

La Malinche informed Cortes about an impending attack from Cholula. The Aztecs managed to convince the people of Cholula to attack in 1519. The alleged plot was to kill the Spaniards in their sleep, but someone told Malinche and she told Cortes. What if Malinche aided the Cholula. If Cortes dies or if he lives, the conquistadors decide to march against the Aztec. The Aztecs manage to resist (since there's no quartering of the Conquistadors in Mexico City ITTL) the Spaniards have to organize an army with the Tlaxcala. But the Aztecs get the Tarascans in exchange for several concessions on behalf of the Aztecs. I imagine they would have lost a battle already making the Aztecs more willing to bribe the Tarascans into helping. By 1520 Velazquez' men arrive to arrest Cortes, but instead find his men engaged in a war.

The question is, does he cut a deal with the Aztecs to arrest Cortes and his men? What if he did die at Cholula? Will he just take advantage of the situation and co-opt Cortes' men with the aim of turning Tlaxcala into a protectorate? Would the outbreak of Smallpox in Tenochtitlan be butterflied away?

Assuming Cortes did die (maybe stabbed in his sleep due to the efforts of Malinche) Naez's death/capture can be butterflied away as well. So he has to decide what to do, enter a war with an unknown empire, or take Cortes' men and keep ties with Tlaxcala in the hopes of having a foothold in a new land with potential allies? The Tarascans had a large army, so to fight would be a bit unwise even with combining forces with Cortes' men and the Tlaxcalan. Naez arrests some of Cortes' lackies and conscripts the rest. Spain sends word that, maybe Cortes was on to something.

So The Aztec get a few more years of independence as Naez settles down near the coast in Veracruz. In the meantime the Tarascans help the Aztecs take out the Tlaxcalan and then the Tarascans say "We did our part, now give us what we want and we'll go our separate ways". A second expidition comes demanding reparations for the loss of life the Spanish got, and tribute as well as recognition of a new colony in Veracruz and Tlaxcala territory. There's war, there's smallpox, the Tarascans make peace, and Aztec falls in the late 1520's. Tarascans last longer as independent until the plagues get them too. I say new Spain still happens, just a little later.

That's my take.
I don't think a Aztec- Tarascan alliance will last the moment the common enemy is defeated. Then it would be a question who backstab who first.
 
I don't think a Aztec- Tarascan alliance will last the moment the common enemy is defeated. Then it would be a question who backstab who first.

Granted, that all depends on the minor tidbits with huge ramifications.

If some of the survivors swear vengeance or the natives interrogate them and they realize that this enemy may come back with more forces, it could force them to ally themselves in the long term
 
I don't think a Aztec- Tarascan alliance will last the moment the common enemy is defeated. Then it would be a question who backstab who first.

It also depends on what the Aztecs give them. I was going for best case scenario. Worst case, as far as Tarascans allying go, the leave as soon as Naez makes nice with the Aztecs but no Tlaxcala retribution, at least not before the Spanish can come back.
 
The Spaniards would come back for sure., but if Cortes' expedition is wiped out and no one makes it back to Hispaniola or Cuba, I wonder how much information would be available to the colonial authority on who did what and on how powerful the kingdoms in that area are.
 
Granted, that all depends on the minor tidbits with huge ramifications.

If some of the survivors swear vengeance or the natives interrogate them and they realize that this enemy may come back with more forces, it could force them to ally themselves in the long term

You would also have the fate of the prisoners. While Cortez would definitely get a one way trip up a tall pryamid, those guys in charge of horses or the armorers or or Carpenters might be given a choice between Cortez's fate or a wife and assistance in teaching what you know.

Also the Aztecs would probably strengthen their alliances, treat their tributaries better so they're less likely to pull a Tlaxcala, the Aztecs or whomever took over their empire would be in a strong position for quite awhile.

It ultimately wouldn't stop the smallpox , but it could keep the Spanish at bay for a long time, perhaps the early 1600s rather than the late 1520s.
 
The Spaniards would come back for sure., but if Cortes' expedition is wiped out and no one makes it back to Hispaniola or Cuba, I wonder how much information would be available to the colonial authority on who did what and on how powerful the kingdoms in that area are.

This is black spot in my knowledge. Pre-Cortes, did they have any idea of what Mesoamerica was like? As far as I know, they didn't know about anything of the advanced civilizations.
 
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