WI: The Spanish Empire Takes Economic Development Seriously?

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

With a POD after 1492 is Spain capable of actually creating a strong economy and not running it into the ground? When I mean by that is not spending so much on wars and spending more developing technologies and industries like Britain and the Netherlands did. And so on and so forth. Maybe improving the state of their colonies too including economics and infrastructure and so on so forth.

What would be needed for Spain to be willing to do this? And how will this affect the world?

 

[ramones1986]

I should suggest a PoD where Miguel de la Paz survived childhood and became king of Spain. However...

 

[unprincipled peter]

any POD of an infant surviving, or a better one is born instead, is a start. you can write the story any way you want. However, the overall society is still going to be the same, so outside of creating a hero leader who changes society simply through cult of personality, what really changes? From the time of Miguel, to the time of the first Bourbon King (Phillip V), the empire of Spain is a mish mash of Kingdoms where the common King is severely handicapped. Often the local elite were more powerfull than the King. Certainly, there could have been a line of better Kings, who pick better leaders, and which implement reforms in a rational manner which gradually transform the country, but until some semblance of strong central authority is established, it's hard to see a grand reformation, and sans your hero leader, it's hard to see the impetus which sparks a central authority.

Centralization occurred during the War of Spanish Succession, when France came in and installed a Bourbon King, and a Bourbon style of central gov't. Spain had been knocked down a lot during the dying days of the Hapsburgs (the last King being almost literally a drooling imbecile) and during the WOSS. But it still had a nucleus, and potential. It also had a mediocre (at best) King ruled by his second wife Elizabeth Farnese who was more interested in recapturing italian lands so her kids could have a place to rule than in improving Spain. Together, they blew the budget on war after war. Phillip abdicated at one point, but his son, Louis I, died almost immediately, so Phillip retook the reins. Switch the fate of the two, make Louis a competent ruler, with competent heirs, implementing needed reforms, staying out of war, and Spain can certainly have much improved fortunes.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Yeah, the Bourbon Dynasty was already in the process of doing this. One would need only to keep Spain out of war, start destroying colonial monopolies and intercolonial trade barriers, and allow settlement from on Castilian areas to allow the Spanish Empire to recover economically.

That said, if you were to avoid the Habsburg rule entirely, Spain would be in a much healthier place as most of its money wouldn't be spent in useless European wars.

 

[unprincipled peter]

Didn't Spain, from 1500 and later, have extensive holdings in Europe? Italian holdings, Dutch, Netherlands, the whole Spanish road? It's kind of hard to stay out of war when your position is so extensive.

Or did the Habsburgs bring them into the picture?

One of the reasons l like the WOSS POD time, is that I find it hard to envision peace with those holdings, and the WOSS conveniently gets rid of them.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Didn't Spain, from 1500 and later, have extensive holdings in Europe? Italian holdings, Dutch, Netherlands, the whole Spanish road? It's kind of hard to stay out of war when your position is so extensive.

Or did the Habsburgs bring them into the picture?

One of the reasons l like the WOSS POD time, is that I find it hard to envision peace with those holdings, and the WOSS conveniently gets rid of them.

It was the Habsburgs that allowed them to have access to much of what you said.

 

[Benevolence]

How about a surviving John, Prince of Asturias? or Charles V divide his realms as they were prior to his reign, Imperial to Ferdinand I; Naples + Spain to Philipp II. Mind you Spain will still be involved in the Wars of Europe so long as the French want Naples, and develop an interest in Navarra.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

any POD of an infant surviving, or a better one is born instead, is a start. you can write the story any way you want. However, the overall society is still going to be the same, so outside of creating a hero leader who changes society simply through cult of personality, what really changes? From the time of Miguel, to the time of the first Bourbon King (Phillip V), the empire of Spain is a mish mash of Kingdoms where the common King is severely handicapped. Often the local elite were more powerfull than the King. Certainly, there could have been a line of better Kings, who pick better leaders, and which implement reforms in a rational manner which gradually transform the country, but until some semblance of strong central authority is established, it's hard to see a grand reformation, and sans your hero leader, it's hard to see the impetus which sparks a central authority.

Centralization occurred during the War of Spanish Succession, when France came in and installed a Bourbon King, and a Bourbon style of central gov't. Spain had been knocked down a lot during the dying days of the Hapsburgs (the last King being almost literally a drooling imbecile) and during the WOSS. But it still had a nucleus, and potential. It also had a mediocre (at best) King ruled by his second wife Elizabeth Farnese who was more interested in recapturing italian lands so her kids could have a place to rule than in improving Spain. Together, they blew the budget on war after war. Phillip abdicated at one point, but his son, Louis I, died almost immediately, so Phillip retook the reins. Switch the fate of the two, make Louis a competent ruler, with competent heirs, implementing needed reforms, staying out of war, and Spain can certainly have much improved fortunes.

Are you implying the Bourbons are required for centralization? Or could Spain done that on its own?

 

[unprincipled peter]

no. not at all. What I meant was that prior to them, I have a hard time seeing an opportunity to implement it. It would be a major undertaking, so you would need forces strong enough to force it. Given the environment of the 1500's-1600's, I don't see it happening sans a major POD. Sure, they could have, but I doubt they would have. means too many locals giving up power, and that is rarely done willingly.

 

[GauchoBadger]

I remember a scenario on deviantART from Silas-Coldwine that included a massive hispanowank, fruit of a PoD where Isabella decides to not expulse the jews from Iberia, causing them to keep their wealth in the country, helping with social and philosophical development, and eventually leading to a much more practical and intelligent Spain.
Is this plausible or are the jews neglectable in the long term?

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

I remember a scenario on deviantART from Silas-Coldwine that included a massive hispanowank, fruit of a PoD where Isabella decides to not expulse the jews from Iberia, causing them to keep their wealth in the country, helping with social and philosophical development, and eventually leading to a much more practical and intelligent Spain.
Is this plausible or are the jews neglectable in the long term?

That can help.