WI the Soviets *and* the United States sit out of WWII?

Historical books, don't be rude. Glantz, Bellamy, and I believe Gilbert (May be wrong about him) in particular.

What? Glantz was among the main critics of "Stalin would have attacked Europe if Hitler didn't made it first". I mean, when Suvorov publied his bullshit, he was among the first to say it was a buffon bullshit.
 
Wasn't the OP talking about Hitler "making good on the M-R pact"? With the pact, the Winter War happens, the invasion of Poland happens and the Red Army reforms happen.
 
What? Glantz was among the main critics of "Stalin would have attacked Europe if Hitler didn't made it first". I mean, when Suvorov publied his bullshit, he was among the first to say it was a buffon bullshit.

Glantz criticized Suvorov's theory that the Soviet Union planned to attack in 1941. Stumbling Colossus's entire point was to state that the Soviet Union wasn't ready for war in 1941. However, it's also noted by him that the reforms by Timoshenko could have feasibly been completed by 1942, vastly improving the Soviet armed forces, and that the Soviet Union did have offensive plans prepared. Albait a 1943 attack date is just as likely and probably more so, since he also says that Stalin's constant shifts in opinion caused many delays.
 
There is the problem of the historical record and of Stalin never launching an attack during the war unless he was sure that the major powers were his partners or tied down on other fronts...not the sort to suddenly launch a massive escalation on his own.

Having plans on paper prepared proves nothing.
 
Joachim Hoffmann was a historian and he spent a lot of time writing that Stalin was going to attack Germany; lots of people said he was wrong also. There is always Viktor Suvorov but most people view him as a crank. David M. Glantz (I think) had in one of his books maps of a plan by Zhukov to do an offense into Poland to create a massive pocket in central Poland. The plan is viewed as one of those studies that armies just do all the time and wasn't a real plan to be put in effect; especially as the attack was set for March 41. Obviously Stalin didn't order the attack. There is John Mosier English professor and would be revisionist historian I believe he made a similiar claim that Stalin was getting ready to knife Hitler in Deathride: Hitler vs. Stalin - The Eastern Front, 1941-1945. Someone would have to check to be sure, I don't recall the details.

So yes there are claims out there but all of them have problems in either from an acceptance point of view of the thesis, the writer themselves (Suvorov and Mosier) and Glantz dismisses it as something like War Plan Red.

Michael
 
There is the problem of the historical record and of Stalin never launching an attack during the war unless he was sure that the major powers were his partners or tied down on other fronts...not the sort to suddenly launch a massive escalation on his own.

Having plans on paper prepared proves nothing.

If Stalin attacks Hitler any time 1940 on he has allies. I do agree that the far stronger case is Stalin doesn't attack but the idea of him attacking isn't ASB, just very, very unlikely.

Michael
 
Joachim Hoffmann was a historian and he spent a lot of time writing that Stalin was going to attack Germany; lots of people said he was wrong also. There is always Viktor Suvorov but most people view him as a crank. David M. Glantz (I think) had in one of his books maps of a plan by Zhukov to do an offense into Poland to create a massive pocket in central Poland. The plan is viewed as one of those studies that armies just do all the time and wasn't a real plan to be put in effect; especially as the attack was set for March 41. Obviously Stalin didn't order the attack. There is John Mosier English professor and would be revisionist historian I believe he made a similiar claim that Stalin was getting ready to knife Hitler in Deathride: Hitler vs. Stalin - The Eastern Front, 1941-1945. Someone would have to check to be sure, I don't recall the details.

So yes there are claims out there but all of them have problems in either from an acceptance point of view of the thesis, the writer themselves (Suvorov and Mosier) and Glantz dismisses it as something like War Plan Red.

Michael

Glantz's description of the plan is that it was originally made in March 1941, but moved to 1942 after May exercises proved it to be impossible in that year. Actual exercises indicated that it was a seriously considered plan. Again, I'm not supporting the Icebreaker theory that Suvorov proposed, I'm supporting the theory that Stalin planned to attack Nazi Germany once reforms were completed. Soviet doctrine was clearly offensive in nature; even defensive plans involved almost immediate counterattack.

There is the problem of the historical record and of Stalin never launching an attack during the war unless he was sure that the major powers were his partners or tied down on other fronts...not the sort to suddenly launch a massive escalation on his own.

Having plans on paper prepared proves nothing.

Historical record (Stalin: A Biography) also shows that Stalin recognized that Hitler would eventually betray him (Though he dismissed that it could happen in 1941) and wanted to get the jump on him before it could happen.
 
Defensive plans including the intent(hope?) of a counter-attack as soon as plausible do not equate to offensive plans.

You're misconstrueing my statement. I said that the Soviets had both offensive plans set for 1942 and defensive plans which were essentially offensive plans, as they assumed that the attackers would be defeated within days and mostly concerned exploitation into the enemy's territory.
 
This would only work if "WWII" is a general war over Poland launched by a German revanchist military dictatorship, one without ambitions of wiping out Russian civilization and the Slavic peoples and one without the willingness to ensure the USA saw it as a threat without adequate means to plan for a war with the USA and UK. If Hitler's in charge he will sooner or later go and do what he always wanted to do: a war to the last knife and the last ditch against the Stalin regime.
 
Defensive plans including the intent(hope?) of a counter-attack as soon as plausible do not equate to offensive plans.

The March 41 attack isn't a hold the German attack and switch to counter attack its a pure attack plan. Again exact details are fuzzy in my mind and I don't have the book to check. As I recall Glantz presents it as one those we hear that they are going to attack so best defense is a good offense setups. That or a pure staff study type thing.

Michael
 
The March 41 attack isn't a hold the German attack and switch to counter attack its a pure attack plan. Again exact details are fuzzy in my mind and I don't have the book to check. As I recall Glantz presents it as one those we hear that they are going to attack so best defense is a good offense setups. That or a pure staff study type thing.

Michael

From what I remember of his general survey of the war he says that "it was a plan of desperation and Stalin was fully justified in turning it down." He credits Zhukov with planning it and believes even if such a plan had been put into effect it would only be so in the earliest case before 1942. His view is that Stalin expected a *German attack* in 1942 as the USSR would be ready for a *defensive war* by then. Of course that's what I remember of it and I may well have some of this mixed up with Richard Overy's book.
 

Sir

Banned
The best way to have the USA and USSR stay out of WWII is to abort WWII in its infancy. It's plausible that France can beat off the first German invasion. Then Italy decides to join the allies in exchange for the colonial concessions the allies were promising them. Western economic power grinds down the Nazis by 1942.

I don't know how to get Japan in on the action. I think a renewed Anglo-Japanese alliance is plausible, but they need a common enemy. The only country who fits the bill is the USSR. If a French and British strike on Baku goes through, Japan's "Go North" faction might win out. Britain and France would sell Japan all the oil and other resources they need so the normal problems with Japan going after the USSR would be mitigated. But that drags the USSR into the war by definition, and ultimately destroys the chances of a quick resolution to the war, so the USA will end up involved too.
 
From what I remember of his general survey of the war he says that "it was a plan of desperation and Stalin was fully justified in turning it down." He credits Zhukov with planning it and believes even if such a plan had been put into effect it would only be so in the earliest case before 1942. His view is that Stalin expected a *German attack* in 1942 as the USSR would be ready for a *defensive war* by then. Of course that's what I remember of it and I may well have some of this mixed up with Richard Overy's book.

OK through the wounder of the Amazon Look in side feature I was able to check

Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War (Modern War Studies) by David M. Glantz

Pages 244-45 outline Zhukov's plan is presented. End notes on page 327 has some more details. No map, so I didn't see that in Glantz's book. Glantz also makes very clear he views it as pure staff study and doesn't even know if Stalin saw the thing.

What is the title of the Richard Overy book?

Michael
 
How many of you have ever seen the Soviet order of Battle for 1 june 1941 ?

The soviet army had as many Armor Divs as the Germans had altogether just on there front lines and if the Red army had not been attacked they would of had 9 more armed divs By Aug .and these units on the Boarder fronts were almost too close to the Boarder for defensive deployment .
 
OK through the wounder of the Amazon Look in side feature I was able to check

Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War (Modern War Studies) by David M. Glantz

Pages 244-45 outline Zhukov's plan is presented. End notes on page 327 has some more details. No map, so I didn't see that in Glantz's book. Glantz also makes very clear he views it as pure staff study and doesn't even know if Stalin saw the thing.

What is the title of the Richard Overy book?

Michael

Russia's War: Blood On the Snow. At least I believe that's the name of it.
 
How many of you have ever seen the Soviet order of Battle for 1 june 1941 ?

The soviet army had as many Armor Divs as the Germans had altogether just on there front lines and if the Red army had not been attacked they would of had 9 more armed divs By Aug .and these units on the Boarder fronts were almost too close to the Boarder for defensive deployment .

That's because the Soviets were beginning creation of a new defensive line reflecting that their border was rather further east than it had been when the Stalin Line was built. If that line had been fully constructed the rickety war machine that was the Wehrmacht might well have cracked in the kind of fighting it was utterly unsuited for and the war played out more on Soviet concepts, as it was the Nazis picked the best possible time they could have attacked.
 
To get this situation, have the Western Allies do better in the early days of the war.

Possibilities:

1. German invasion of Norway fails. Denmark is going to fall due to proximity to Germany, but the fall of Norway can be prevented.

2. The Ardennes are defended.

The Low Countries, the Baltic, and maybe Northern France are the primary killing ground. As the war drags on, the Soviets demand more and more concessions. After all, they're supplying a lot of the Germans' oil and grain.

Eventually, in order avoid becoming a total Soviet puppet, the Nazis might need to seek terms.
 
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