WI:The Sea Peoples had conqured Egypt

Do We know what type of governmental system the sea Peoples set up? Is there any possible type of invaders either from the west or the south that could damge Egypt and it's Retneu province such as the Dorians in greece?
 
Historico said:
Do We know what type of governmental system the sea Peoples set up?
The Peleset became the Philistines, who were a confederacy of (five? seven?) city-states, each with its own king.

Historico said:
Is there any possible type of invaders either from the west or the south that could damge Egypt and it's Retneu province such as the Dorians in greece?
The first Sea People attack was in conjunction with the Libyans, and Libyan pharaohs took over the Delta after the collapse of the New Kingdom, so yes.
 
Egyptian culture proved scarily resilient over the centuries, so I'm not sure that anything similar to the Dorian incursions could be postulated. It would certainly require some pretty nasty genocidal activity on the invaders' part, otherwise they'd just end up integrated or presiding over a subjected Egypt pretty much still recognisable.

Given the Peleset readily adopted local culture, I wonder if they had it in them.
 
robertp6165 said:
It is also interesting to note that one of the Hyksos kings was named Jacob-Yer. Jacob, as we know from the Biblical narrative, was Joseph's father. Possibly this Jacob-Yer and the Biblical Jacob are the same person or somehow otherwise related (although there is no way of knowing that for sure).



Actually, this is not completely true. The Phoenicians were a Semitic people, descendants of the Canaanites who had inhabited Lebanon, Syria and Palestine for almost 2,000 years by the time of the Sea Peoples invasions. The Sea Peoples were a separate group, and some of them, anyway, did settle on the coast of Palestine. The Peleset became the Philistines, the Tjekker settled around Mount Dor, and the Denyen (Danaoi?) may have settled in northern Palestine, where they became intermingled with the Hebrews to form the Tribe of Dan (this may be the source of the special enmity between the Philistines and the Danites...). We don't know the fates of the others (Lukka, Shekelesh, Sherden), but they were probably pretty well destroyed in the wars with Rameses III and merged with the other surviving tribes.

Some of the Sea Peoples definitely seem to have Greek roots, but not all. The Sherden (Shardana) seem to have come from Sardinia (where horned helmets and swords almost identical to the ones depicted on the Egyptian reliefs have been found). The Shekelesh seem to have come from Sicily. The Peleset themselves seem to have come from Crete, and may be descendants of the old Minoan peoples of Crete. The Phaistos Disk, found in Crete, depicts men wearing the odd sort of feathered helmets which are traditionally associated with the Peleset. Other tribes seem to have come from Lycia, Caria, and other regions in Asia Minor (the Lukka, Tjekker, Denyen and others) and were probably Luwians (a people related to the Hittites who occupied most of Anatolia), although the Denyen may have been the Greek Danaoi. The Akaiwasha (sp?) are often identified with the Achaeans, and may represent refugees from the fall of the Mycenaean palace civilization in Greece proper.

I was under the impression that most of the supposed links between the Sherden and Sardinia, etc, had been generally disproven, or at least discarded for lack of evidence since they were mostly guesses in the first place? C.f. Robert Drews, The End of THe Bronze Age....
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
The Lurker said:
I was under the impression that most of the supposed links between the Sherden and Sardinia, etc, had been generally disproven, or at least discarded for lack of evidence since they were mostly guesses in the first place? C.f. Robert Drews, The End of THe Bronze Age....
I'm pretty sure that I've seen references to ShRDN (the Shardan) in the Phoenician epigraphic record on Sardinia - chief among them the Nora Stele, but probably others IIRC. Also there are the recent discoveries of Nuraghic architecture in Israel that I mention that provide a pretty solid link to Sardinia.

Incidentally, Frank Cross, who published the Nora Inscription way back when, is about to publish the scrolls of the book of Samuel discovered in Cave 4 at Qumran in the Discoveries in the Judean Desert (DJD) Series. This is a pretty big thing, as the Dead Sea Scrolls go.
 
An Early Doric incursion into Egypt would most likely end up as did the later Hellenistic incursion and occupation in that the new peopel would be absorbed into the sedate life of the Nile,add a new dynamic to the culture and in a few generations be calling themselvs Egyptians .
 
Wow, interesting stuff. I just wasted an entire class period reading about this period. Damn wireless internet :)


Never knew that Palestine was named after the Pelesets of "Sea People" fame - nifty!
 
This is a fascinating thread

Reading it, I am moved to ask whether there is a unified theory of history with regard to all this ? Many authors and schools of thought seem to be mentioned. Has anyone pulled this all together to mirror the sort of consensus-ish developing here ?

And do you have to know 20 languages to be able to read it !

Grey Wolf
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
Reading it, I am moved to ask whether there is a unified theory of history with regard to all this ? Many authors and schools of thought seem to be mentioned. Has anyone pulled this all together to mirror the sort of consensus-ish developing here ?

And do you have to know 20 languages to be able to read it !
My advisors, Martha Joukowsky and William A. Ward, once edited a book entitled The Crisis Years on this very topic. It brought together imput from a variety of sources - historical, epigraphic, archaeological. It's a bit dated by now but is a nice place to start. Ward could speak 20 languages, in fact; the man could read the Ugaritic tablets like the Sunday Times. :D
 
Leo Caesius said:
My advisors, Martha Joukowsky and William A. Ward, once edited a book entitled The Crisis Years on this very topic. It brought together imput from a variety of sources - historical, epigraphic, archaeological. It's a bit dated by now but is a nice place to start. Ward could speak 20 languages, in fact; the man could read the Ugaritic tablets like the Sunday Times. :D
And it can be yours for a mere $200! :eek:
Linky Linky!
Maybe I'll try the library first. :cool:
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
You've got to be kidding me.

I think my copy set me back all of 20 bucks (it's softbound). Perhaps it's time for a new edition?
 
The Lurker said:
I was under the impression that most of the supposed links between the Sherden and Sardinia, etc, had been generally disproven, or at least discarded for lack of evidence since they were mostly guesses in the first place? C.f. Robert Drews, The End of THe Bronze Age....

Odd that you should cite Drews, because he is unequivocal in stating that the Sherden did come from Sardinia (and the Shekelesh from Sicily, etc). Certainly many would not agree.
 
The Empire of the "People of The Sea": Part One, 1208-800 BCE:

SEA PEOPLES TIMELINE: PART ONE, THE EARLY YEARS

1208 BCE: Pharaoh Merneptah of Egypt heaitates at the rumor of the very real attacks by the mysterious "Sea Peoples". He never decrees a general Mobilasation of the Egyptian Armies. The Sea Peoples with the allied Libyans sweep through the Sinai and soundly defeat the forces of Merneptah on land. Merneptah himself is killed on a massive battle on the mouth of the Nile. Most Egyptians flee southward to Nubia and even further to the land of Punt. The Remaining Men are slaughtered, Women and Children are sold into slavery. The capital Memphis is sacked, and many of the Egyptian Mines are looted. The Egyptian Empire is Obliterated.

1200-1000 BCE: The Peleset, Shekelesh, Denyen, Weshesh, Lukka, Sherden, and The Teresh a.k.a., The Sea Peoples consolidate their gains in the Medeterranien. The Tribes set up an feudal type reign over the sacked territory. Each of these cities, and the land adjoining is cultivated by soldiers under the command of paid leaders, is ruled by a "lord" whos is independent and free. In times of Political and Military needs, the City-states are an force to be reckoned with. For the most part however, Tey squabble among themselves, weakening all of them.

1200-800 BCE: The Golden Age of Libya. In wake of the Destruction of the Hittite and Egyptian Empires as well as the Cannanites, The Libyans expierence an explosion of Art, Literature, Commerce, Building Projects and expansion militarily. The Libyans continue their alliance with the "Sea People" City states and dominate trade across the Medeterranien

1168 BCE: The Kassite Dynasty of Babylon is overthrown by the Elamite King Shutruk-nahhunte. Babylon is captured and plundered (It is at this time that the famous stele of the Law Code of Hammurabi is taken to the Elamite capital at Susa). The Elamites rule Babylonia for the next 30 years.


1156 BCE onward: The Second Dynasty of Isin comes to power in Babylonia. In the aftermath of the overthrow of the Kassite dynasty by the Elamites, a new dynasty arises in the town of Isin under Marduk-kabit-ahheshu, (1156-1139 BC) who by the end of his reign will retake Babylon and re-establish the independence of Babylonia from the Elamites.

1125-1103 BCE: The Reign of King Nebuchadnezzar I of Babylon. He invades and conquers most of Elam.


1115-1077 BCE: Reign of King Tiglath Pileser I of Assyria. Assyria invades the region of Cicillia and northern Syria habited by the Sheklesh/ Neo Hittites and extracts tribute, but does not remove the Sheklesh dynasties ruling over the cities. In 1081 he defeats King Marduk-nadin-ahhe of Babylon and conquers Babylonia, ending the Second Dynasty of Isin

1100 BCE: Over the past 3 centuries, Aramaean nomads have been infiltrating the Syrian region. By 1100 BC, they are powerful enough that they take control of some of The southern Hittite cities, such as Damascus. However, the twelve cities of the north remain under Sheklesh dynasties, albeit with the addition of Aramaean elements to their population.


1076-934 BCE: Aramaean invasions of Mesopotamia. Incursions by Aramaean nomads severely weaken Assyria. Assyria loses control over the Sheklesh cities of Syria, and enters a period of decline. Also during this time, Babylonia is invaded by Aramaeans and Chaldeans, and breaks up into small tribal states. It will be some time before the country is re-united.

c. 1000 BCE: Most of the Shelkesh and Aramaean cities of Syria are temporarily under the sway of the United Hebrew Kingdom of Kings David and Solomon. The Sheklesh cities of Kizzuwanda (Cilicia) remain independent.

c. 1000 BCE onward: Greek Colonization of the east coast of Asia Minor. Also at about this time, the alphabet is developed by the Phoenicians. Phoenician traders and colonists will spread it far and wide over the succeeding centuries, where it will be adapted by many peoples, including, eventually, the Greeks and Romans.

c. 1000 BCE: The Sabaeans, a Semitic tribe living in southwestern Arabia, unite and form the Kingdom of Sheba. Approximate time of the legendary visit of the Queen of Sheba to the court of Hebrew King Solomon. The Sabaeans are traders in frankincense and myrrh, precious resins obtained from trees which grow only in southern Arabia and which are greatly prized for use in religious rituals.


965 BCE: Death of King Solomon of Israel. The Hebrew Kingdom is divided in twain, with the ten northern tribes forming the Kingdom of Israel and the two southern tribes forming the Kingdom of Judah. The House of David continues to rule in Judah, but Israelwill be ruled by a series of dynasties over the next two centuries. The two Israelite kingdoms will be often at war over the succeeding years. The Sheklesh and Aramaean citiesof Syria regain their independence...indeed, Damascus gains independence even before Solomon’s death (c. 970 BC), when the Aramaean chieftain Hezion (Rezon from the Bible) seizes the city and establishes his dynasty there

c. 950 onward BCE: Growth of the power of the Aramaean city-state of Damascus. Damascus brings the other Aramaean cities under it’s control.

935-911 BCE: Reign of King Ashur-Dan II, who begins to once again rebuild Assyria’s strength.

c. 930 BCE: Death of King Hezion/Rezon of Damascus. He is succeeded by his son, Tab-Rammon (Tabrimmon from the Bible).

930-925 BCE: Abimelech I, King of Dagon-Shan(Memphis) unites the Pelest city-states of Egypt under his rule. He marches onward sacking the Teresh cities of the Sinai, and The Denyen of The Gaza Strip. Their combined armies take the Welesh and Lukka City-states of the former realm of Phoenicia. Finally, around 925 BCE, Abimelech succesfully conquers The Majorly inhabited Shereden and Sheklesh Cities of northwestern Syria. Abimelech takes the title of the Great King of Philistia, and this is recognized by his vasaal rulers in other "People of The Sea" Cities.

925 BCE: King Sheshonq I of Libya breaks his peoples alliance with The "Sea People" Tribes and attempts to invade the new kingdom of Philistia. King Abimelech now in complete control of all the tribes army, show his military Might on land as well as on the sea. Sheshonq retreats back to his Kingdom defeated.

920 BCE: King Sheshonk I of Libya dies, He is succeeded as his son who takes to the throne as Meshwon I.

920-877 BCE: Reign of King Meshwon I of Libya. In his Long Reign, The King of Libya will sponser many building projects in the Capital city of Tjehenis, many dedecated to him and his father. Meshwon also has the old Hieroglyphic writing of The Libyans addapted to the much easier Phoenican Language. He will encourage the colonization of Several areas around the Medeteranian Sea. He will also construct an powerful trade networks to the Gold mines of Nubia and Punt, greatly adding to the Libyan Treasury.


900 BCE: The various city-states and principalities around Lake Van are united to form the Kingdom of Urartu. Urartu, whose population is largely Hurrian in origin (descendants of the people who once formed the powerful kingdom of Mitanni) will be one of the great enemies of Assyria, and sometime ally of Philistia.

900 BCE and Onward: Libyan traders begin to found colonies oversees in north Africa, Spain, Sicily, and Sardina.

890 BCE: King Abimelech I of Philistia dies, He is succeeded by his son who takes to the throne as Abimelech II. Also in this year, King Tab-Rammon of Damascus dies, He is succeded by his son who takes to the throne as Ben Hadad I.

885 BCE: War between the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah. King Asa of Judah makes a treaty with Ben Hadad I of Damascus, and King Baasha of Israel is defeated. Both Israel and Judah become tributaries of Damascus.

884-859 BCE: Reign of King Ashurnasirpal II of Assyria. He fights several wars with Philistia, but is unable to defeat it, in large part due to alliances made by the Great King of Philistia with King Aramu of Urartu (in the Armenian mountains) and Kings Ben Hadad I and Ben Hadad II of Damascus.

881-870 BCE: Reign of Omri of Israel. In 881 BC, Omri usurps the throne of Israel. Since King Ben Hadad I of Damascus is heavily engaged in warfare against Assyria, Omri is able to free Israel from its tributary status. Omri moves the capital to Samaria, which is heavily fortified, and extends Israelite control over Ammon and Moab to the southeast of Israel.

877 BCE: King Meshwon "The Great" dies, he is succeeded by his son who takes to the throne as Sheshonk II.

870-848 BCE: Reign of King Ahab, son of Omri of Israel. Most of his reign will be spent warring, usually successfully, against the Kings of Damascus (except for one notable instance where he fought as the ally of King Ben Hadad II against Assyria). However, in the end, he will die in battle against the forces of Ben Hadad II at the Battle of Ramoth Gilead in 848 BC.

860 BCE: King Ben Hadad I of Damascus dies, and is succeeded by Ben Hadad II. Also in this year, Aramu comes to the throne of Urartu. He makes an alliance with King Abimelech II against Assyria.

859-853 BCE: Reign of King Shalmaneser III of Assyria. He continues his father’s wars against Philistia and Urartu.

858 BCE: King Abimelech II of Philistia dies, he is succeed by his son who takes to the throne as Achish I.

855 BCE: Marduk-zakir-shumi I comes to the throne of Babylon, beginning a new dynasty which will re-unite the country.

853 BCE: Battle of Qarqar. King Achish I of Philistia allies himself with King Ahab of Israel and King Benhadad II of Damascus against King Shalmaneser III of Assyria. Shalmaneser is killed and his army is routed.


853-843 BCE: Civil War in Assyria. The death of King Shalmaneser III at Qarqar has left a power vacuum in Assyria, as his oldest son, the crown prince Ashur-dain-apla, is a boy Of fifteen years. Various claimants vie for power for the next decade, and Assyrian power is greatly diminished by this internecine warfare. Somehow, the youngest son of Shalmaneser survives the brutal infighting and comes to the throne as King Shamshi-Adad V in 843 BC.

851 BCE: Marduk-bel-usati rebels against his brother, King Marduk-zakir-shumi I of Babylon. Marduk-zakir-shumi (unable to call on Assyria as he did in OTL) is overthrown, and his brother takes the throne. He will continue his brother’s efforts to unify Babylonia.

850 BCE: Following the victory against Shalmaneser III of Assyria, the alliance of Hatti, Damascus, and Israel breaks up as old animosities resurface.

849-845 BCE: King Ahab of Israel makes an alliance with King Jehoshaphat of Judah and King Achish I of Philistia against Damascus. King Ben Hadad II is hard pressed fighting a two front war, but manages to kill Ahab of Israel at the Battle of Ramoth Gilead in 848 BC, effectively taking Israel out of the war. Judah makes peace with Damascus shortly afterward. Ben Hadad then concentrates all of his forces against Philistia. Neither side is able to make much headway, however, and a peace treaty is signed in 845 BC.

845 BCE: Mesha, king of the city of Dibon in Moab, revolts against Israel and re-establishes the independence of Moab. In commemoration of his victory, he sets up a stele (what in OTL will be known as the “Moabite Stone”). Ahab’s weak successors as kings of Israel, Ahaziah and Joram, are unable to restore Israelite control over Moab. Also in this year, King Seshonk II of Libya dies, he is succeeded by his son who takes to the Throne as Meshwon II

843 BCE: King Ben Hadad II of Damascus is murdered by Hazael, an influential court official, who usurps the throne. Also in this year, the civil war in Assyria ends and King Shamshi Adad V takes the throne. Shamshi-Adad once again begins building Assyrian strength. However, Assyria will not be strong enough to attack it’s neighbors for some time, and indeed will be hard-pressed to survive the onslaught of the Kings of Urartu over the next few decades.

842 BCE: King Acish I of Philistia dies, and is succeeded by his son who takes to Throne as Acish II. Recognizing the growing threat posed by Assyria, he forms an alliance with King Aramu of Urartu, King Hazael of Damascus, and King Mita of the Mushki (Midas of Phrygia) against Assyria. Also in this year, the House of Omri in Israel (in the person of King Joram) is overthrown by Jehu, one of the king’s generals. Jehu assumes the throne of Israel.

841 BCE: Threatened with attack by Hazael of Damascus, King Jehu of Israel formally submits to King Shamshi Adad V of Assyria. However, Shamshi Adad is in no position to campaign against Hazael, and Jehu’s action succeeds only in enraging Hazael against him.

840 BCE: Death of King Aramu of Urartu. His son, Sardur I, comes to the throne. Sardur breaks the alliance with Damascus and the Mushki, while maintaining an alliance with Acish of Philistia.

840-800 BCE: Period of Urartian expansion. Under the warrior kings Sardur I, Ishpuinis, and Menuas, the Kingdom of Urartu expands at the expense of Assyria, Phrygia, and Damascus. By the end of the period, the Mushki have been pushed back to the Halys River, and both Assyria and Damascus are virtual vassals of the Urartian king, paying yearly tributes.

837 and Onward BCE: Wars of Hazael of Damascus against Israel and Judah. King Jehu of Israel attempts to make an alliance with King Acish I of Philistia, but with no success (For two reasons, One: Philisitia is still very much of the alliance with Damascus, and Secondly Philistia is embroiled in conflict with the Urartians by this time). By the end of his reign, Hazael will take all of Israel’s possessions east of the Jordan, and ettempt to travel as far west to Babylon and threaten Jerusalem itself. Israel and Judah become tributary states of Damascus.

818-812 BCE: King Shamshi Adad V of Assyria wars with Babylon. He defeats King Baba-aha-iddina in battle and pushes all the way south to the Persian Gulf, but Babylon itself is not taken, and Babylonia remains independent.

816 BCE: King Acish II of Philistia dies, he is succeeded by his son who takes to the throne as Abimelech III. The new king reorganizes the army, reducing the proportion of chariots in favor of light and medium cavalry (lancers and archers). The new military thus created is quite formidable.

815 BCE: King Abimelech III of Philistia, using his newly reorganized army, defeats King Ishpuinis of Urartu, who was besieging the city of Bybolos. The advance of Urartu to the west is halted, and no Philistine territory falls to the Urartians. However, Philistia will pay tribute to the King of Urartu in the succeeding years. Also in this year, King Jehu of Israel dies, and is succeeded by his son Jehoahaz. Hazael of Damascus continues his war against Israel, and the new King proves no more able to resist than his father

c.a. 815 BCE: The city of Sheshopolis(Carthage) is founded by an expedition of Libyans sent out by Meshwon II

814 BCE: King Meshwon II of Libya dies, he is succeeded by his son who takes to the throne as Osorkon I.

811 BCE: Death of King Shamshi-Adad V of Assyria. He is succeeded by his minor son, Adad Nirari III. Adad Nirari’s mother, Queen Sammuramat (Semiramis) rules as regent for the first few years of his reign.


808-783 BCE: Reign of King Adad Nirari III of Assyria. Adad Nirari reaches adulthood in 808 BC and assumes the throne of Assyria. His reign will be filled with warfare, primarily against Urartu. However, he will also war against Hatti and Damascus, as well as conduct campaigns in Babylonia to the south and against the Medes to the east.

804 BCE: King Adad Nirari III of Assyria attacks Hazael of Damascus. Hazael calls upon the old allaince with Philistia and is joined by the forces of King Abimelech III of Philistia, and the Assyrian army is defeated in battle outside the city of Kadesh. Adad Nirari retires to Assyria, and will not trouble Syria again for the rest of his reign.

801 BCE: King Hazael of Damascus dies, he is succeeded by his son who takes to the throne as Ben Hadad III.

800 BCE: King Jehoahaz of Israel dies, and is succeeded by Jehoash
 
Looks good, though I think Israel should be moved to the north and west a little bit--much of the southern coast in OTL was Philistine, but I'm sure that they had a bit of coastline.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Matt Quinn said:
Looks good, though I think Israel should be moved to the north and west a little bit--much of the southern coast in OTL was Philistine, but I'm sure that they had a bit of coastline.
Those northern parts (including Dor, down as far as Jaffa if not further) were part of Phoenicia - under the control of Tyre for much of this period, IIRC. The Israelites and the Judeans were largely hill people and not particularly known for their seamanship in antiquity.

They look like they've swooped around Idumea and taken control of the Red Sea Coast; how'd they do that? Did I miss something? (I'm color blind, so I could well be missing something). If I'm reading your TL correctly, they should be confined to OTL West Bank by now.
 
Leo Caesius said:
If I'm reading your TL correctly, they should be confined to OTL West Bank by now.

It's not just color-blindness Leo--the Israelite dominions seem to include a fair bit of Jordan (more so than OTL, I think) and some territory around the Red Sea.
 
Matt Quinn said:
Looks good...

Thank you. Since I actually wrote most of this. About 80% of it is lifted directly from my Third Hittite Empire timeline. He is even using my maps with some crude alterations. :rolleyes:
 
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