WI: The Polish Republic

I have some doubts about your Albanian nationalist scenario. It could have worked, but it would have required really big Allied support. What is more important, the communist would have had only to last till Soviets' arrival - after that Red Army takes care of BK and installs puppet goverment. And the Albanian civil war can not be decided before that, because Albania is still an occupied country. Later the Soviets, as "liberators" of Abania have a decisive voice. They claim BK to be "reactionary fascists" and destroy them.
I know, I know. The Allies are more powerful in TTL, but somehow I doubt they would be willing to fight for Albania surrounded by other communist countries. I already went a little too far pulling Red Army from Poland.
As far as Germany goes, I didn't mean splitting it into communist and non-communist parts. I meant dividing Germany into many countries, like it was before 1871: Bavaria, Saxony, Brandenburg etc. Here I'm still not sure. The Allies are stronger, they won the war quicker and with smaller losses, so they might be not so mad at Germans as in OTL. On the other hand, with neutral states as a "buffer" against communism, they don't need strong and democratic Germany, and calls for vengeance would be strong anyway. It may be even a part of Allied-Soviet deal: Soviets would love to see Germany divided and demilitarized, because it weakens the West. It might be the price for leaving "buffer states" alone.

Your suggestion on the division of Germany into many countries is quite complicated...and not a distant idea. There must be a strong separatism (much like the US "states' rights") among the leaders of the various Lahnder of Germany, and no party must be able to gain national support among the Germans. in short, the allies must ensure that no party or political movement pursue a "german reunification" agenda. in fact, there is a chilling aspect of your proposal; it might lead to the creation of several "extremist" political groups with the goal of reunifying Germany, which may lead to an early rise in neo-Nazism.

As for the Albanian scenario, NLF lasting until the Soviets arrive is not part of it; here, the soviets manage to reach only romania & bulgaria (and manage to supply their stooges in Greece and Albania). what's more, the creation of a soviet satellite in the form of Albania would somewhat "disrupt" the West-Soviet balance in the balkans. a better scenario would be a titoist Yugoslavia, nationalist & neutral Albania, and western-leaning South Greece (Kingdom of Greece) against the communist satellites of romania, bulgaria, and North Greece (Hellenic People's Republic).

kinda makes me think of revising the "balance" farther north...
 
Maybe if the Allies reach Berlin first, the "neutral belt" looks like that: Germany's completely in the western camp, Austria and the Czech republic and Western Poland are neutral like Finland, and Eastern Poland and Slovakia are Communist.
 
Instead of Germany, it's Poland split into a capitalist-democratic and a communist half. Not sure about the borders, and which parts of Germany the two Polands should get...
 

Susano

Banned
Instead of Germany, it's Poland split into a capitalist-democratic and a communist half. Not sure about the borders, and which parts of Germany the two Polands should get...

If Poland is split, though, there wont be any neutral part. However, of coure West Poland would be a non-communist Republic of Poland. Again, the Republic of Poland without any Polowank! :D
 
Your suggestion on the division of Germany into many countries is quite complicated...and not a distant idea. There must be a strong separatism (much like the US "states' rights") among the leaders of the various Lahnder of Germany, and no party must be able to gain national support among the Germans. in short, the allies must ensure that no party or political movement pursue a "german reunification" agenda. in fact, there is a chilling aspect of your proposal; it might lead to the creation of several "extremist" political groups with the goal of reunifying Germany, which may lead to an early rise in neo-Nazism.
If the SU can't occupy part of Germany, due the the Neutral Belt, then Stalin will hold out for the dismemberment of Germany. there would be no Unificaton of the Zone in 1948. Any Unification talks would have to be after the collaspe of Communism, and with the various German States as members of the EU. I doubt it would get far.
 
Originally posted by katipunero
As for the Albanian scenario, NLF lasting until the Soviets arrive is not part of it; here, the soviets manage to reach only romania & bulgaria (and manage to supply their stooges in Greece and Albania). what's more, the creation of a soviet satellite in the form of Albania would somewhat "disrupt" the West-Soviet balance in the balkans. a better scenario would be a titoist Yugoslavia, nationalist & neutral Albania, and western-leaning South Greece (Kingdom of Greece) against the communist satellites of romania, bulgaria, and North Greece (Hellenic People's Republic).
kinda makes me think of revising the "balance" farther north...

If the Soviets get Romania and Bulgaria, nothing would stop them from taking Albania too - if they want it. I'm not sure if they would tolerate a neutral "thorn" in the communist block (Albania would be surrounded by communist states, and Tito broke with Stalin only in 1948).

Now to Max Sinister.
I'm obviously not happy with dividing Poland (I'm Polish BTW) and I have some doubts about it. To the Poles it would have looked just like another partition of their country. And how to divide it? Put the border on Vistula?
What about Warsaw then? Besides, it completely destroys my idea of the Neutral Belt. I remind you, that in TTL Stalin agreed to create Neutral Belt because he believed that "neutral" states would be taken over by the local communists. He was disappointed, but it was too late then. With Poland divided, most of Polish communists would have remained in Eastern Poland, and the rest would have been too weak to overthrow the goverment in Western Poland. And the Western Poland, without strong local communist party, would not have been neutral: they would have been the first to join NATO. SO goes the Neutral Belt (I love that term).
In other words, Stalin gambled to gain whole Poland and lost. Later, in Greece, he didn't make that mistake and took what he could.


It's funny. Whent I saw this thread, I simply improvised a timeline. Who would have thought it would last so long? You've got to love this forum.
 
About Lvov: it is possible that it remains in Poland - but to do that you need whole East Prussia in Polish hands before. And Stalin till then keeping Lvov in his hands. Then, some realistic thinking Polish diplomant (there were not many of those, I admit) decides to switch northern East Prussia for Lvov. I think Stalin could go for thet exchange.
 
Originally posted by Tizoc
About Lvov: it is possible that it remains in Poland - but to do that you need whole East Prussia in Polish hands before. And Stalin till then keeping Lvov in his hands. Then, some realistic thinking Polish diplomant (there were not many of those, I admit) decides to switch northern East Prussia for Lvov. I think Stalin could go for thet exchange.
And how could the Poles get whole East Prussia? In 1945 Red Army controlled whole Poland AND East Prussia. Poland had nothing to exchange. And Stalin wanted to keep Lvov because he failed to capture that town in 1920 - painful memory to such an ambitious man.
BTW, do you know that real Curzon's Line left Lvov in Polish hands? It was changed by some leftist bureaucrate in London. Officially Polish-Soviet border was to be the Curzon's Line, but in reality it was not.
 
If the Soviets get Romania and Bulgaria, nothing would stop them from taking Albania too - if they want it. I'm not sure if they would tolerate a neutral "thorn" in the communist block (Albania would be surrounded by communist states, and Tito broke with Stalin only in 1948).

Remember, the Balli Kombetar in this TL are supplied with Allied aid, due in part to PM Churchill foreseeing a Soviet-dominated Balkans if Britain doesn't act (BTW, it was Hoxha who was helped by the Allies OTL). As a result, a civil war would occur between two guerilla armies supplied & armed by two sides of the Allied front. Stalin, perhaps, would agree to a noncommunist Albania as long as it's neutral & poses no threat to the stability of the communist states.

COMING SOON: A map of seraphim74's amazing WHITE WALL scenario, plus a flag for the Hellenic People's Republic.
 
Originally posted by katipunero
Remember, the Balli Kombetar in this TL are supplied with Allied aid, due in part to PM Churchill foreseeing a Soviet-dominated Balkans if Britain doesn't act (BTW, it was Hoxha who was helped by the Allies OTL). As a result, a civil war would occur between two guerilla armies supplied & armed by two sides of the Allied front. Stalin, perhaps, would agree to a noncommunist Albania as long as it's neutral & poses no threat to the stability of the communist states.
COMING SOON: A map of seraphim74's amazing WHITE WALL scenario, plus a flag for the Hellenic People's Republic.

First of all, thank you for all warm words and interesting discussion.
Now, to the point.
I've got an idea. I had written that I doubted the Allies would fight the Soviets for Albania. But let's assume that after BK defeated the communist some far-looking Allied general (was there any general like that?) decides to send a strong brigade to Albania BEFORE Soviets can reach this country. BK helps by the landing (infantry by air, heavy equipment after capturing some port. Together they liberate Albania (with Soviets approaching occupation forces are retreating anyway).
So when Red Army reaches the Albanian border, the Soviets are greeted by Albanian nationalists and a group of British soldiers saying: Halo, nice to see you, but this country is already free, care to find some other place to liberate?
Stalin is not happy, but he 's not ready to attack Allies - yet. So he agrees to leave Albania neutral and independent - if the Allies withdraw their forces. He thinks that later he will conquer Albania without any problems - after all, it's only a small country.
I think that's the only way to keep Albania free from communism.

I can't wait to see your map, even if I'm working on my own. I like the name of Hellenic People's Republic, but I thought about something like Greek Democratic Republic (GDR - like German Democratic Republic - a little joke).
 
I can't wait to see your map, even if I'm working on my own. I like the name of Hellenic People's Republic, but I thought about something like Greek Democratic Republic (GDR - like German Democratic Republic - a little joke).

AND NOW...

THE MOMENT YOU'VE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR...

THE map & the flag.
 
And how could the Poles get whole East Prussia? In 1945 Red Army controlled whole Poland AND East Prussia. Poland had nothing to exchange. And Stalin wanted to keep Lvov because he failed to capture that town in 1920 - painful memory to such an ambitious man.
First: AFAIK, in Tehran it was agreed that Poland will be recompensed for land lost to USRR with ex-German territory to the line of Odra/Oder river, including whole East Prussia. OTL border is an effect of agreement between USRR and PKWN (Polish communist government)
Second: controlled in which month of 1945? Koenigsberg was captured in April...
Third: Stalin was a pragmatist - if he could get usefull land in exchange, he might've gone with it. Altough he may've preferred a better connection with Hungarian Plain over a Baltic port that doesn't freeze over in the winter...
BTW, do you know that real Curzon's Line left Lvov in Polish hands? It was changed by some leftist bureaucrate in London. Officially Polish-Soviet border was to be the Curzon's Line, but in reality it was not.
Actually, IIRC, Curzon Line ended south on pre-WW1 Austro-Russian border. So Lvov was neither west, nor east of Curzon Line.

Oh, also I modified/corrected a map:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=898148&postcount=886
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Tizoc
First: AFAIK, in Tehran it was agreed that Poland will be recompensed for land lost to USRR with ex-German territory to the line of Odra/Oder river, including whole East Prussia. OTL border is an effect of agreement between USRR and PKWN (Polish communist government)
Second: controlled in which month of 1945? Koenigsberg was captured in April...
Third: Stalin was a pragmatist - if he could get usefull land in exchange, he might've gone with it. Altough he may've preferred a better connection with Hungarian Plain over a Baltic port that doesn't freeze over in the winter...
It's hard to say about any agreement between USSR and PKWN: the Soviets said what they wanted, and PKWN obeyed, that's all.
The war ended earlier, so the garrison of Konigsberg surrendered earlier, but to whom? Of course to Soviets - no big choice there.
Sure, Stalin might have agreed to make such exchange: my point is, he didn't have to. He had Lvov AND Eastern Prussia. And he could
AFAIK the Curzon proposed his idea of Polish-Soviet border during conference in Spa in 1920. And it went even south of Lvov.
 
Since it seems that the general TL is now finished,

it's time now for the individual TLs of the countries affected.

Starting with Yugoslavia:

Marshal Tito, having broken relations with Stalin & his party expelled from the Cominform, decides to pursue a communist path independent of the Soviet line. All goes as in OTL, leading to the creation of Titoism.

In foreign affairs, Tito pursues the same path as he took OTL. Here, however, he also forms a "nonaligned bloc" with the other nations of the "White Wall": Finland, Poland, the Czech Republic, Austria, Albania, (and later) the Kingdom of Greece (South Greece) and Turkey. Formally known as the "Central Alliance of Nonaligned Nations" and popularly known as the "White Bloc", this military pact between the so-called "neutral nations" would have the aim of protecting each member state through "collective action" (similar to the one-strike-against-one-country-is-a-strike-against-all doctrine of NATO & the Bucharest Pact) as well as deterring any threat of nuclear action by any of the two main military alliances. The White Bloc is later merged in the much-wider Nonaligned Movement, again formed by the behest of Tito.

Starting in the late '60s, the nations of the White Wall have begun to spring out of their postwar economic depression. In particular, the Yugoslav economy has experienced an increase thanks to the relative openness of its economy to the West. Politically, Tito, already cemented in his status as leader of the SFRY, has been able to influence the Communist parties of the other neutral nations, particularly those of Poland, the Czech Republic, and Albania. Yugoslav relations with these nations became further close after what was to be called the "Red Sweep", wherein the communists won in the national elections in these countries.

By the early '80s, Tito's health began to fail. Seeing that his time is short, he begins the process of building a new SFRY administration after his demise. It's during his last years that he forms the Executive Council of State, made up of the premiers from each of the member republics of the SFRY, which soon takes over power after Tito's death; his state funeral became the largest news event of the '80s in the White Wall nations. This, as well as the other changes Tito wrought right before his end, would last until the collapse of communism in 2001...
 
WHAT HAPPENED TO:

ALBANIA

For the next 18 years, Albania was dominated by the National Front, a coaliton of moderate parties led by the Albanian Centrist Party, headed by Midhat Frasheri. Under Frasheri's presidency, Albania accepts Marshall Plan aid & pursues a pro-West orientation in domestic & foreign affairs. Soon after, however, in the mid-60s, the Front has been challenged by two parties. The right-wing Legality Movement, headed by Abas Kupi, survives the war, having gained enough seats in the People's Assembly; as before, they pursue a royalist agenda, seeking the eventual restoration of the Albanian monarchy. By the '60s, much opposition comes from a "restructured" Communist Party of Albania, headed by Koci Xoxe (responsible for having Hoxha framed for treason, leading to the latter's elimination by Stalin). Influenced by Titoism, the communists call for more state control of the economy and a more "patriotic" reorientation of Albanian domestic & foreign policy.

1965 has been a watershed year for Albania. For the first time, the communists take power, winning a majority in the parliamentary elections & Xoxe winning the presidency. Under communist rule, Albania shifts its policies towards a more leftist direction. It establishes the Ministry of Economic Supervision to formulate economic plans. In 1968, Albania joins the White Bloc. In the following years, Albania seemed to put itself more & more towards the Red direction.

Then in 1971, a coup orchestrated by Brig. Gen. Ahmet Noli kicks the communists out of power. Under the leadership of Noli's Committee of National Salvation, basic freedoms are suspended, elections withheld, & a reign of terror ensues as the military-dominated government cracks down on the opposition. Pressured by the US, Soviet Union, but most especially by Tito, the military hands over power to a popularly-elected administration led by Pres. Mirjan Isai of the National Front. Similarly, the communists under Viktor Buzoku become the opposition. The royalists, who supported the military regime, lie low for a while.

The Albanian economy, which began to prosper in the mid-'60s, stabilized by the end of the decade, thanks to government-sponsored growth of industry as well as a harsh land reform programme. The economy, however, started to fluctuate after the military takeover in the early '70s. By 1979, Albania was faced with an economic crisis, thanks to the high price of oil, decreasing demand for its products, among others.

In 1982, the reorganized Legality Movement won a majority in parliament. Its leader, Visare Cacaj, became the first female president of that country. The decade saw a hard restructuring of the country's economy as well as the return of the royal family, sparking rumors of a possible return of the monarchy. In 1993, Buzoku became president, while the communists formed an alliance with the National Front to maintain the majority of seats in the People's Assembly. Until the collapse of communism in 2001, the government has alternated between the republicans (NF) & the communists; on all occasions, except in 1995, the royalists remained in the opposition...
 
WHAT HAPPENED TO:

POLAND

After the success of the Polish Peasant Party in 1946, a new constitution is promulgated that is similar to the 1925 constitution. Gen. Władysław Sikorski, who headed the Polish government-in-exile during the Second World War (and doesn't die in this TL), is reappointed president, while PSL leader Stanisław Mikołajczyk became Poland's first postwar prime minister.

Poland began to accept Marshall Plan aid right after the 1946 elections. By the beginning of the '60s, the Polish economy begins to rise, and Poland itself seemed to have recovered from all the chaos that WWII brought.

In foreign affairs, Poland became one of the founding nations of the White Bloc, and has been a key member in that organisation. During the rest of the Cold War, Poland enjoyed good relations with the West and better ones with the nations of the White Bloc, especially Yugoslavia; this became more pronounced when the Polish communists came to power in 1965.

In domestic affairs, Polish politics became a seesaw between the moderate & right-wing parties and the leftist ones. Under the premiership of Edward Gierek, the communists began a programme of more state intervention in the economy as well as more emphasis on relations with the nations of the White Bloc; such moves were supported by the PPS, who served as the communists' partners in the minority government. The '70s saw the return of the PSL, with Jerzy Nowak as PM; it moderated some of the more leftist policies of the communists. The '80s saw the resurgence of the Endeks; under the premiership of Fryderyk Zielinski, the regime pursued a neoconservative path then popular in the West. The '90s was a watershed decade. It saw a "back-and-forth" between the PSL and the communists, who reorganized themselves as the Polish People's Party following the collapse of communism in 2001.
 
Originally posted by katipunero
After the success of the Polish Peasant Party in 1946, a new constitution is promulgated that is similar to the 1925 constitution. Gen. Władysław Sikorski, who headed the Polish government-in-exile during the Second World War (and doesn't die in this TL), is reappointed president, while PSL leader Stanisław Mikołajczyk became Poland's first postwar prime minister.
Poland began to accept Marshall Plan aid right after the 1946 elections. By the beginning of the '60s, the Polish economy begins to rise, and Poland itself seemed to have recovered from all the chaos that WWII brought.
In foreign affairs, Poland became one of the founding nations of the White Bloc, and has been a key member in that organisation. During the rest of the Cold War, Poland enjoyed good relations with the West and better ones with the nations of the White Bloc, especially Yugoslavia; this became more pronounced when the Polish communists came to power in 1965.
In domestic affairs, Polish politics became a seesaw between the moderate & right-wing parties and the leftist ones. Under the premiership of Edward Gierek, the communists began a programme of more state intervention in the economy as well as more emphasis on relations with the nations of the White Bloc; such moves were supported by the PPS, who served as the communists' partners in the minority government. The '70s saw the return of the PSL, with Jerzy Nowak as PM; it moderated some of the more leftist policies of the communists. The '80s saw the resurgence of the Endeks; under the premiership of Fryderyk Zielinski, the regime pursued a neoconservative path then popular in the West. The '90s was a watershed decade. It saw a "back-and-forth" between the PSL and the communists, who reorganized themselves as the Polish People's Party following the collapse of communism in 2001.
Nice...but I'm not sure if the communists could be so strong. Poles saw the communists at work and know prefectly well what to expect from them. Western communist parties in OTL were quite strong, because they had no idea what the communism in Soviet edition looked like. I think that the left wing of Polish political scene would be dominated by socialist PPS (Polish Socialist Party).
 
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