WI the Philippine Army was better trained and given Garands in 1941?

Driftless

Donor
An American/Filipino analog to the Owen SMG in 1939? ;) Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.... Not ever going to happen. Still, a near-perfect solution to an un-ciphered problem at the time.
 
So there was over 2 million M1917 Enfields (one of the best bolt action battles rifles ever made) - equipping twice as many doughboys in WW1 as the Springfield did.

Not sure how many there were available in 1940 but even 1 or 2 hundred thousand of them would have made a difference

And trying to see if the M1917 Lewis was still available in numbers at this time as the US Armed forces did not seem to be making use of them. Not sure how many were made?


The M1917 Enfield was the issue rifle for the Philippine army. Even after 730000 were sold to the UK to equip the Home Guard, who I believe also got all the US Lewis guns left, there were still enough to go around. The issue with the M1917 is the ejector spring, it's quite prone to breakage, and needs replacement. I believe the last few times the Fall of the Philippines has come up, in timelines and in general discussions, it was noted that broken ejector springs were a real problem in the fighting, and various field fixes had to be used. On the other hand, I've just read the new book on the Arms of the Home Guard, and there isn't any mention of the Brits having ejector issues with their rifles. I'm not sure if the UK got a better batch, as all of theirs were delivered still in Cosmoline, if the Filipinos got worn out ones, or my UK source just isn't mentioning the issues.
 
From what I have read when looked it up, in the late war period Springfields were used mainly as sniper rifles.

They certainly were used as the Principle sniper rifle from 1943 mainly because during the war there was never a satisfactory Garand Sniper rifle produced until very late in the war and never in large numbers

From 1943 the M1903A4 sniper rifle was the principle (and first) dedicated sniper rifle in the US Army in WW2 and before that there was no standard sniper rifle
 
The M1917 Enfield was the issue rifle for the Philippine army. Even after 730000 were sold to the UK to equip the Home Guard, who I believe also got all the US Lewis guns left, there were still enough to go around. The issue with the M1917 is the ejector spring, it's quite prone to breakage, and needs replacement. I believe the last few times the Fall of the Philippines has come up, in timelines and in general discussions, it was noted that broken ejector springs were a real problem in the fighting, and various field fixes had to be used. On the other hand, I've just read the new book on the Arms of the Home Guard, and there isn't any mention of the Brits having ejector issues with their rifles. I'm not sure if the UK got a better batch, as all of theirs were delivered still in Cosmoline, if the Filipinos got worn out ones, or my UK source just isn't mentioning the issues.

I do recall reading about the ejector spring issue now you mention it.

The British effectively designed the weapon and used the earlier US Made .303 P14 Enfield (which the M1917 is a 30-06 copy of) and given that Britain was an industrialised nation I would imagine that every rifle was given some TLC by an armorer before being issued!

I doubt that the fledgling PH army had the same capacity?

I wonder if the PH had the ability to make STEN guns!?
 
In the '50-'70s there was plenty of .45 and 30-06 mil surplus out there with pre-1939 headstamps, and it all reliably went 'bang' when the trigger was pulled back then.

the only old ammo I ever had problem with, was with pre 1920 manufacture. Smokeless powder before that point had real problems with degredation, and that's only compounded by poor storage.

Improperly stored ammo can lead to cartridges which may go bang but can suffer from over-pressure issues. The powder is in balls or strands, if it is kept at too high a temperature for too long it breaks down so that it gets more "powdery" which combusts faster than expected leading to increased strain on the operating mechanisms of the weapon, this is often more of an issue in automatic weapons than bolt actions like mauser or enfields. I suspect a lot of the old ammo that popped up on the surplus market was kept in more temperate areas. Primer malfunctions are a separate matter.
 
I do recall reading about the ejector spring issue now you mention it.

Seems not to have been a problem in US service.

The British effectively designed the weapon and used the earlier US Made .303 P14 Enfield (which the M1917 is a 30-06 copy of) and given that Britain was an industrialised nation I would imagine that every rifle was given some TLC by an armorer before being issued!

Hmm. Home Guard?

I doubt that the fledgling PH army had the same capacity?

Issued as is, without the 'soldier's bible' to go with it? Break. Private Filipe Aquino is no better Private Joe Infantry.

I wonder if the PH had the ability to make STEN guns!?

ba2dec75-1575-4a01-b8d2-fd9353d42b90.jpg


You see those funny things running around in Manila in 1939 that needed constant maintenance?

The answer is yes.

Candidate?

https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=598

Problem? That MP-18 is not invented here.
 
I've thought for a while that it would have been a good idea to send a bunch of old Model 1918 37mm trench guns to the Philippines. They'd be light enough that they wouldn't need heavy mechanized transport but might bulk up the firepower potential.
 
Where was he supposed to get the money?
Money was there.

Little less fancy 'O' Club, a few less B-17s(each over $200000, and less GSE charge) and everyone gets a Rifle, still in 1919 era Cosmoline
like some my neighbor bought back when Mail Order guns were a thing
BritishEnfield_ARMar1960.JPG

From 1960 or so
 
Seems not to have been a problem in US service.



Hmm. Home Guard?



Issued as is, without the 'soldier's bible' to go with it? Break. Private Filipe Aquino is no better Private Joe Infantry.



ba2dec75-1575-4a01-b8d2-fd9353d42b90.jpg


You see those funny things running around in Manila in 1939 that needed constant maintenance?

The answer is yes.

Candidate?

https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=598

Problem? That MP-18 is not invented here.

Home Guard weapons would have been checked and inspected by armourers at one the Army level maintenance depot's.
 
Home Guard weapons would have been checked and inspected by armourers at one the Army level maintenance depot's.

Not necessarily. In Britain's Final Defence: Arming the Home Guard, 1940-1944; it's mentioned that the British were in such haste that not only were the American rifles shipped in their Cosmoline, they were issued that way to operational Home Guard units. The first introduction to their new rifles was removing a thick layer of congealed packing grease. Having gone straight from storage to operational units, it may have been some time before a qualified armorer got a look at them.
 
So there was over 2 million M1917 Enfields (one of the best bolt action battles rifles ever made) - equipping twice as many doughboys in WW1 as the Springfield did.

Not sure how many there were available in 1940 but even 1 or 2 hundred thousand of them would have made a difference
I think something like 1,000,000 of them were sold to Britain for the Home Guard. About the only useful surplus land weapons sold to Britain in 1940.
 
In 1935-36 both the Seversky P-35 & Curtis P-36 were just out of design phase, but going into production shortly; so probably more of the P-26 Peashooters, or the not-so-old Curtis P-6 Biplanes(Many Air Forces were still flying biplanes in the mid 30's). Hold out for another year or so, and the technology jump would be fairly significant. The P-35's had their fifteen minutes of being technology "hot stuff" that passed by 1938-39? The P-36 was still a very useful fighter into 1942-43.

For light bombers: maybe some variant of the Curtis Shrike single-engine light bomber. There were a few of them still on the USAAC roster into early 1942 I believe.

Give?
Buy.

Curtiss was trying to sell the Hawk 75 (having lost to Seversky's P-35) as they had been doing with previous Hawk fighters thru the 1920s, but was running into the Neutrality Act from parts of the FDR administration.

Douglas had similar problems in trying to sell the B-18 to France, it was set a 'Classified' no export at first, even though there's not much difference from the B-18 to the DC-2 that they were selling around the globe

Yes, the P-35s and P-36 would be ideal on wanked ATL. But 12 P-26 will probably be sufficient for the first phase of 3 years. Then, an ATL would be P-36 upgrades after 1939.

Airpower is a huge problem. What can the Philippine Republic afford?

How much of that was Quezon's fault and how much MacArthur's and how much was it Francis Bowes Sayre, Sr.? Too many cooks syndrome.

It depends on allocation. The equipment allocation for 1936 by the Philippine Commonwealth was around 3.6M philippine pesos, roughly around $1.8M around the same time. The budget allocation for aircraft purchase in 1936 was 69,000 Philippine pesos, or around $35,000. I believe the P35s and P36s, were between $20-25k at this time. So airpower funding would depend on priority of how to allocate that $1.8M.

However, The Philippine Commonwealth financial policy at this time was minimal spending until independence. Upon Independence, by in bulk whatever they saved from 1936 until 1945. Of course on ATL, one has to handwave that in order for the Commonwealth to release the money by 1936 and each year until 1941.

So you can say, lack of funding from 1936 to 1941 was Quezon's fault for Philippine army equipment/training.

I got to tell you, the Curtiss stuff was "crap".
It was but the Filipino pilots in OTL did shot down Japanese Zeros and Mitsubishi bombers using P26. I suppose in ATL using P36, replacing the P26 with P36, the Filipino pilots would have shot down more Zeros and Japanese bombers.


I doubt that the fledgling PH army had the same capacity?

I wonder if the PH had the ability to make STEN guns!?

Issued as is, without the 'soldier's bible' to go with it? Break. Private Filipe Aquino is no better Private Joe Infantry.
I think the problem isnt making one rifle if locally produce in the Philippines. The problem would be mass producing in 1936 in the Philippines for 100,000 to 1M rifles. Philippines didn't have the industrial capacity of the Britain nor got any government arsenal in 1930s OTL.

The Philippine arsenal, government arsenal was founded OTL 1957, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Arsenal) 20 years late for the party. It just so happens that it is also in Bataan in OTL.

But on ATL scenario, the US can certainly jumpstart the Philippine arsenal by 1936.
 
Money was there.

Little less fancy 'O' Club, a few less B-17s(each over $200000, and less GSE charge) and everyone gets a Rifle, still in 1919 era Cosmoline
like some my neighbor bought back when Mail Order guns were a thing
BritishEnfield_ARMar1960.JPG

From 1960 or so

The Gunsmiths in the P.I. we quite inventive.

OTL, they made slamfire shotguns from scrap and odds and ends
Filipinoslamfireshotgun1.jpg

and then engaged the IJA with them

Imagine what the guerillas could have done with real weapons

1. Government arsenal surplus is probably what the Quezon government was thinking. If I had to advise the Philippine Commonwealth government, I would be looking at M1917 rifles, not likely to be issued to USNG units.


Danao. Those gunsmiths started turning out weapons during the Filipino-American war. They COULD make MP18s... easy.

2. Artillery?

Mortars, lots of mortars, preferably Stokes or the US equivalent.

3. Aircraft, I point out the Boeing P-26 was surplus to requirements and was sold at scrap metal prices, though still flyable. But as to Philippine air force planes, the best thing that could happen Philippine airpower wise is if Louis Brereton were to board a plane at Clark Field and have a training "accident". That would benefit the Philippine Commonwealth and the USAAF far more than 100 B-17s or MacArthur going Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and setting off to invade Taiwan by himself in a one man rubber. dinghy.
 
Just to add.

I was searching around for the money and economy of the Philippines circa this time around for my own timeline research.

According to The "Windfall" Revenue Controversy (1937-1941): A Perspective on Philippine Commonwealth History by Satoshi Nakano Philippine revenues 1939 to 1940 was around 131-132M pesos($65M). (Exchange during this time was $1=2 Philippine peso).

If we use Angus Maddison data 1990 Geary-Khamis dollars of Philippine economy of around $24-25B in 1939-1940($260M if use inflation calculator for 1939-40 current), the GDP to tax ratio is around 2.5%. Its even lower(1.4%) if you exclude the Coconut oil excise tax from the revenue.

There is a bit more money in OTL without wanking Philippine economy just by tax collection efficiency to at least 5% or 10% of current GDP. Money that can be used for training, better equipment. Even if military spending is meager at 1% of GDP compared to OTLs 0.31%, that is still more funding for training/equipment. Just a rough basis Post WW2, SIPRI military data estimates of Philippine spending averaged 1.8% from 1958 to 1964(pre Marcos era). 1.8% is ideal on peace time without threat of war, I suppose it can be higher and would vary once threat of war increases (European war 1939), Japanese invasion of Indochina 1940.
 
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