WI the Ottomans made it to America?

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well, me looking over this thread have made up a conclusion.

Mehmet lives longer. Italy falls under his control. Grenada, North Africa, maybe Morocco is vassalized. by 1500 they would have an outlet to Atlantic. Spain would get there, bring back gold and the Ottomans do the same. Ottomans most likely take over Cuba(Al-Qouba), Mexico (Al-Mejiquo), Central America. And so on and so forth
 
well, me looking over this thread have made up a conclusion.

Mehmet lives longer. Italy falls under his control. Grenada, North Africa, maybe Morocco is vassalized. by 1500 they would have an outlet to Atlantic. Spain would get there, bring back gold and the Ottomans do the same. Ottomans most likely take over Cuba(Al-Qouba), Mexico (Al-Mejiquo), Central America. And so on and so forth

About North African states becoming vassals though, I don't really know. IOTL, they pledged allegiance to the empire voluntarily due to the already present threat of a united Christian Spain which owned most of western Medditerranian Sea as its lake. While in this scenario, if the Ottomans will really directly move to Grenada right after their job in Italy is done, it will be solely the Ottoman shipings that will be sailing through the western med..... Maybe at least the process of their vassalization wouldn't as voluntarily as IOTL case, perhaps.....
 
I don't see the Ottomans going to the New World,maybe all of the Middle East or Africa..but not all the way into North or South America. Remember,it's about location..Europe's closer to the Americas than the Ottoman Empire is..or the Middle East for that matter. So it's likely to over extend their reach..
 
I don't see the Ottomans going to the New World,maybe all of the Middle East or Africa..but not all the way into North or South America. Remember,it's about location..Europe's closer to the Americas than the Ottoman Empire is..or the Middle East for that matter. So it's likely to over extend their reach..

If they conquered the Emirate of Grenada before the Spanish, they might have stood a chance
 
If they conquered the Emirate of Grenada before the Spanish, they might have stood a chance

I don't think they'd last more than a century in the New World, just due to the internal problems the Ottoman Empire faced, and the logistics of the matter.

That said, even a minor and brief Ottoman presence in the new world would signifigantly change things from OTL if they brought Islam to the New World.
 
I don't think they'd last more than a century in the New World, just due to the internal problems the Ottoman Empire faced, and the logistics of the matter.

That said, even a minor and brief Ottoman presence in the new world would signifigantly change things from OTL if they brought Islam to the New World.

What internal problems ? Also if it's about the logistic matters, I hope you won't forget what the essential requirement of a Grenadan vassal for this scenario means...

Also, with the only suitable timeframe for this scenario is just before the start of Spanish sailing to the Americas, I think that would be a quite major setback for the trend of colonization as whole. That depends really, about how would be the attitude of Castile and Aragon ITTL... or about what kind of manuevers the European powers would apply as the result of Ottoman conquest of Italy. You can also count the wealth Ottomans possessed at the time as a factor really (on now, add in ITALIAN WEALTH). Do note that Ottoman presence in Italy would certainly be a distraction for European powers if it's only to be interested in an "empty land" across the sea. OTOH, there's a good chance that Islamic colonies ITTL would expand slower compared to OTL European Christian colonies, due the nature of colonization by Ottoman vassal of Granada would be inevitably be different, especially in the terms of methods of proselytizing their religion.
 
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I take it you aren't familiar with Ottoman history from the death of Suleyman until the rise of the Korpulus?
That assumes that they are doomed to decline regardless of butterflies. If they can continue to produce quality Sultans they may be able to stave off serious decline for quite some time. The rest of Europe will rise in relative power but who, how and when may change.
 
I take it you aren't familiar with Ottoman history in the 1600s?

Well, I am. Are you aware of all the internal problems everyone else had? Like, say:

The Wars of Religion
The English Civil Wars
The Dutch Revolt
The 30 Years War

And on and on and on...

The Ottomans didn't have it any worse, and a great deal of their problems were caused by inflation brought on by Spanish gold and silver, oops, make that Ottoman gold and silver in this TL. By the end of the 1600s, Spain and certainly Portugal, were much lesser powers than the Ottomans yet managed to hold onto large empires. There is no reason the Ottomans couldn't. The reasons the Ottomans never had any American terrories were geographical, but this scenario provides for different geographical realities, not to mention huge impact on European and Ottoman history.
 
Sorry to both I decided to edit my original post to be more correct as Selim II--1600 was decent enough for them.
 
That assumes that they are doomed to decline regardless of butterflies. If they can continue to produce quality Sultans they may be able to stave off serious decline for quite some time. The rest of Europe will rise in relative power but who, how and when may change.

In my opinion the idea that the decline of the empire was caused by poor Sultans is a product of misunderstanding of the Ottoman system and nationalist Turkish historiography that has tried to discount the entire Ottoman period after Suleyman.

The reality is that the empire was just too big with too large a machinery of government to be run by one man. While individual sultans could have a negative impact on the functioning of the empire, the causes of decline were really not personality-driven but rather due to economic forces beyond the empire's control.

The empire was massive, but that masks the relative poverty and environmental vulnerability of most of imperial territory, which is largely arid or semi-arid, and was sparsely populated compared to Central and Western Europe. It was really the early-Ottoman military superiority that allowed the empire's rapid rise, and once that eroded, you essentially had a sprawling and poor empire versus rich and populous European countries.

In this TL, the Ottomans control Italy, which is of incalculable economic value to the empire, and leads to an Ottoman presence in the New World, which would ameliorate many of the economic causes of decline, which were largely inflation due to New World precious metals, and the rerouting of trade away from the empire.
 
Those kingdoms could have been taken by the Ottomans at some point. They were not overly powerful.

With Italy being within Ottoman hands, certainly. But the different form of acquisition of North African territories ITTL as in not so peaceful way compared to the OTL case will going to make differences.

I take it you aren't familiar with Ottoman history in the 1600s?

I take it you have a rather liberal interpretation of "internal problems", in which whenever most people talking about the Ottomans tend to do. Like most of them though, you seem to be just an unfortunate victim... :)
 
I think it would be a lot harder to conquer Morocco than it would to vassalize Granada. It was politically difficult for the Ottomans to go to war with Muslim powers, especially Orthodox ones like Morocco.

In this scenario however, if they ever will, Ottoman movement to Morocco would be initiated from the already-vassal Emirate of Granada. Will it be easier for the Ottomans to subdue the Moroccans ITTL ?
 

Yataghan

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watch this an then discuss ottoman inability to go west, it was just a matter of will
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmpQyb9xh3Q
and if you look carefully you would notice what would ottomans in new world look like:
you have those blond bosnians and tattars at 0:13 and the rest, well what can I say, ottomans

and just imagine this army in new world :D
 
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CalBear

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It is contrary to Board policy to revive dead threads. This thread was beyond dead with three years since the last substansive post. If you have serious interest in a subject, start a new thread.

Please DO NOT bring the dead back as zombies.
 
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