WI the Ottomans made it to America?

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Why would he have the will?

He did not need more gold. He did not need more slaves. He did not need more iron. He did not need more land. Except to deny those resources to his enemies or rivals. Neither he nor his contempories knew those resources existed in the Americas in sufficent quantities to justify the effort.

What was his motivation? Intellectual curiosity? Not likely a sufficent motivation to expend such wealth for something neither he nor the empire needed. Colonies in Africa, Central Asia or even central Europe maybe - but the Americas?

The sole POD I'm proposing is longer-lived Mehmed and the conquest of Italy. This leads rather naturally into intervention in Granada. This was an important window for the Ottomans, before the conquest of Granada and the unification of Spain.

I don't think the scenario requires Ottoman conquest of the Americas, it just requires an Ottoman presence. There is no reason why the Ottomans would not want trading posts, from which Islam could spread to the natives.

A big difference between Islam and Christianity when it comes to "missionary" activity is that Christian proselytes tended to be "orthodox" missionaries with formal educations and pretty strong prejudices. Islam tended to spread by merchants with their "superior technology" or wandering sufi dervishes with the same advantages (more advanced metals, superior medical tech, etc. - or in native terms, "stronger magic"), which led to superficial Islamization which progressively deepened; but these merchants and sufis were far more tolerant of local practice, even pagan ones, which a Dominican priest would never tolerate. Christianity ended up generally imposed by force or direct political colonization - or by purchasing slaves and baptizing them, whereas Islam spread much more quickly and effectively in it's own way.

That's why I think a very limited Ottoman presence could very well cause large-scale conversion to Islam and create the basis for Ottoman influence or even political control in the New World.

As for Ottoman motivations, two words: Chocolate and tobacco. You could add two more: Silver and Gold.

Trade routes are plenty of motivation, as well as keeping up with the Joneses, especially if the Ottomans obtain Atlantic interests through Granada.

I can't help but wonder what happens to Spanish and Portuguese exploration if the Ottomans are in Granada.
 
A big difference between Islam and Christianity when it comes to "missionary" activity is that Christian proselytes tended to be "orthodox" missionaries with formal educations and pretty strong prejudices. Islam tended to spread by merchants with their "superior technology" or wandering sufi dervishes with the same advantages (more advanced metals, superior medical tech, etc. - or in native terms, "stronger magic"), which led to superficial Islamization which progressively deepened; but these merchants and sufis were far more tolerant of local practice, even pagan ones, which a Dominican priest would never tolerate.

Hrmm. I guess the question is who estalbishes themselves in the New World, and how?

Let's imagine that the Ottomans land in Cuba. (Al-Kiba? Al-Gharb? Or would the Ottomans give it a less classically Arabic name?)

Cuba attracts their interest, since there's gold. But how do the Ottomans run the place? It's very, very far away from the rest of the Empire.

The impression that I get is the Ottomans preferred to work through local elites, but while this might work fine if they reach Mexico (The Tlaxcalans can easily be imagined converting to Islam, although I have no idea how the first contacts would deal with human sacrifice), Cuba itself would be different. Hrmm.

Trade routes are plenty of motivation, as well as keeping up with the Joneses, especially if the Ottomans obtain Atlantic interests through Granada.

Minor nitpick: Granada itself had no Atlantic interests, and by the 15th century was basically an economic colony of Genoa.

But I get the impression that when you posit the Ottomans propping up Granda, you're also envisioning something like the establishment of a "super-grenada", expanding the state to include Seville and the rest of Andalucia. Is this correct?
 
This is definately an interesting scenario, although the collective Western response would probably be thus:

Portuguese Guy: "Ottomans! Here! I thought the whole point behind these stupid voyages was to get away from the middleman, not bring him with us!"

;)
 
Hrmm. I guess the question is who estalbishes themselves in the New World, and how?

Let's imagine that the Ottomans land in Cuba. (Al-Kiba? Al-Gharb? Or would the Ottomans give it a less classically Arabic name?)

Cuba attracts their interest, since there's gold. But how do the Ottomans run the place? It's very, very far away from the rest of the Empire.

The impression that I get is the Ottomans preferred to work through local elites, but while this might work fine if they reach Mexico (The Tlaxcalans can easily be imagined converting to Islam, although I have no idea how the first contacts would deal with human sacrifice), Cuba itself would be different. Hrmm.

Minor nitpick: Granada itself had no Atlantic interests, and by the 15th century was basically an economic colony of Genoa.

But I get the impression that when you posit the Ottomans propping up Granda, you're also envisioning something like the establishment of a "super-grenada", expanding the state to include Seville and the rest of Andalucia. Is this correct?

You might have noted that I specifically said that they'd probably establish trading posts and that Islam would spread on its own.

BTW, The Ottomans co-opted local elites in the late empire - in this period it was directly and centrally ruled by the Devshirme class.

I would assume that a major Ottoman landing in Granada wouldn't be limited to propping up the regime, but I don't think it would be a re-re-Conquista, either. Probably at least, key locations would be taken to improve the strategic situation. I think the Ottomans in this period could beat any Iberian army, but you'd have to devote some pretty sustained attention to conquering the whole peninsula.
 
You might have noted that I specifically said that they'd probably establish trading posts and that Islam would spread on its own.

BTW, The Ottomans co-opted local elites in the late empire - in this period it was directly and centrally ruled by the Devshirme class.

I would assume that a major Ottoman landing in Granada wouldn't be limited to propping up the regime, but I don't think it would be a re-re-Conquista, either. Probably at least, key locations would be taken to improve the strategic situation. I think the Ottomans in this period could beat any Iberian army, but you'd have to devote some pretty sustained attention to conquering the whole peninsula.

This is a long bow. First the conquest of Italy is not a likely occurence much less a given. The Italian mercenary defenders in Constantinople at the fall of the City were more than a match for the Ottoman attackers. Despite any political problems in Europe, the western states are not going to sit back and let the papacy be threatened by the infidel.

Further, the logistical problems of an Ottoman army landing in Iberia and proceeding to defeat a formidable military opponent is unlikely in the extreme. I doubt very much that any force the Ottomans were capable of landing in the Iberian peninsula could defeat any Iberian army at this time.

What seems to be missing here is why it did not happen in OTL if it all seems so easy. The answer is partly because the conquest of the remnants of the Byzantine Empire was being digested. The empires newly conquered citizens were still overwealmingly orthodox and not happy about being subjects of the sultan. Not much military force to spare for a foray against significant adversaries in Italy and the west. Foolhardy springs to mind.
 
...I actually did that in AOE3 once; I played the Ottomans and went for a "native troops only" win, with the result that I ended up with a a bunch of Ottoman imams urging their giant Sioux horde to crush the infidel French settlement. It was hilarious, and yes, my first thought was indeed "this would make an awesome timeline". :D

Although the problem as I see it is that all of the countries that colonized the New World were ones crammed up against the Atlantic seaboard: England, France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands. The farthest east of any significance whatsoever was Sweden, and even then at the height of their power they barely managed a weak and temporary showing.

Courland was further East, and tiny.

True, Courland lost their colonies, as did Sweden. But Denmark kept their Virgin Islands all the way to 1917.

And the total size of Ottoman Empire far exceeded that of Denmark, or Netherlands.

In 17th century, Pirates of the Caribbean picked up most of the West Indies, and the Guyanas. All Spain kept was Cuba and Puerto Rico. And the rest became a patchwork of French, English and Dutch colonies, plus the Danish Virgin Islands.

The Barbary Pirates of Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli were a part of the Osman empire. They fought well and did not mind learning European military technology.

Suppose they cross the Atlantic and enter the fray. What would be the results of having a Dey of Turkish Guyana?
 
This is a long bow. First the conquest of Italy is not a likely occurence much less a given. The Italian mercenary defenders in Constantinople at the fall of the City were more than a match for the Ottoman attackers. Despite any political problems in Europe, the western states are not going to sit back and let the papacy be threatened by the infidel.

Further, the logistical problems of an Ottoman army landing in Iberia and proceeding to defeat a formidable military opponent is unlikely in the extreme. I doubt very much that any force the Ottomans were capable of landing in the Iberian peninsula could defeat any Iberian army at this time.

What seems to be missing here is why it did not happen in OTL if it all seems so easy. The answer is partly because the conquest of the remnants of the Byzantine Empire was being digested. The empires newly conquered citizens were still overwealmingly orthodox and not happy about being subjects of the sultan. Not much military force to spare for a foray against significant adversaries in Italy and the west. Foolhardy springs to mind.

I think maybe you should do a review of the history of the time. First, the Ottomans were not digesting the remains of the Byzantine Empire - it has long since ceased to be a factor and what little remained of it, the actual city of Constantinople, had been taken in the first year of Mehmed's reign, 30 years before he went after Italy (he was 21, so even in his early 50s there's no reason he couldn't have lived longer).

Second, the Italian mercenaries were not more than a match for the Ottomans, they lost. Defended by massive fortifications in the most defensible major city ever built.

Third, even Charles V never attempted a field battle with the Ottoman army, because he knew he would lose, and badly. What was the Hapsburg response to Suleyman's move on Vienna? Run for the hills. (to Linz - not a stupid move, but also not exactly broadcasting confidence). And Mehmed's army has a greater technological and doctrinal superiority over Western armies than Suleyman's did.

There seems to be some thought that the Papacy exerted some magical pull on all Christendom. The relationship of the various Catholic nations with the Papacy were very complex and not altogether smooth. We're only a few years from the Reformation here.

The reason Italy wasn't taken was that the person interested in it died. Mehmed's successor, Murad II, just wasn't into military expansion, and the window of opportunity was lost as Spain was created not too long after.

I think this is the last TL involving the Ottomans I'll participate in. We never actually discuss a TL, it's just a group of people who say, "no way, the Ottomans suck". You're talking about an empire at the height of its energy and military advantage, that crushed multiple pan-European crusades and swept away all contenders virtually without reverse. Mehmed did attack Italy, he was successful in establishing a foothold, and the Pope was convinced all was lost and made preparations to flee Rome.

I know everyone things Islam is some evil religion that everyone would resist to their dying breath, but that didn't develop in the lands conquered. First of all, the Orthodox population quite preferred the Ottomans to Latin rulers - the whole not trying to crush their religion and lack of exploitative and excessive taxation, not to mention security and effective government and all - so in Italy there are going to be plenty of people who accommodate themselves to Ottoman rule and are going to plain prefer it. The peasantry are going to have much, much lower taxes, a strong state can always coopt large segments of the nobility, and a peninsula divided into hostile city-states is not the best prospect for beating back a powerful empire. If you're say, Venice, and can accept Ottoman vassalage and thereby gain a huge advantage over your competitors, guess what? You're going to do it.

As for Iberian armies, good luck. United Spain definitely unlocked some major energies, but this is before that, and an Ottoman army operating out of convenient and rather wealthy bases in Granada is simply not a viable target for Castille and Aragon.

Nobody ever said this is a likely scenario, we are discussing a possible scenario. The likelihood of a beylik centered on a little village in Asia Minor becoming a world empire in 100 years with 10 supremely talented monarchs in a row is pretty freakin' small, as is a band of Arabs overthrowing BOTH the Roman Empire and Sassanid Empires in like a year, as is a city state in Italy conquering most of the known world, as is a small tribe of horse nomads uniting Central Asia and sweeping across the entire Eurasian land mass, etc. That's history: fully of implausibility.
 
Courland was further East, and tiny.

True, Courland lost their colonies, as did Sweden. But Denmark kept their Virgin Islands all the way to 1917.

And the total size of Ottoman Empire far exceeded that of Denmark, or Netherlands.

In 17th century, Pirates of the Caribbean picked up most of the West Indies, and the Guyanas. All Spain kept was Cuba and Puerto Rico. And the rest became a patchwork of French, English and Dutch colonies, plus the Danish Virgin Islands.

The Barbary Pirates of Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli were a part of the Osman empire. They fought well and did not mind learning European military technology.

Suppose they cross the Atlantic and enter the fray. What would be the results of having a Dey of Turkish Guyana?

I hadn't thought of it in terms of pirates - that's a good option, but it would have to wait until there's enough for pirates to prey on to make a living. Indian canoes full of corn aren't really attractive enough to lure you away from rich Med sea lanes...
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Hanefite Sunnism strikes me as a faith that would have more success in the New World than Catholicism

Why do you think that it would?:confused:
 
Hmm what if the Ottomans split Italy with the French creating a kind of buffer. Also, maybe present it to the Orthodox subjects as a chance under the Ottomans to finally pay off those @#%ing Catholics and sack Rome in revenge after all this time. The French get to prop up a puppet Pope who does their bidding slowing down any attempts at Crusade. Maybe even revive the Commune of Rome and use it as a small free-city-state between French N. Italy and Turkish Italy so as to prevent cries of "Get Rome back for Jesus!" With interests focused west instead of East, Mehmed and Selim would probably still have had to fight Uzun Hassan and Ismail, but might have been able to be persuaded to leave the Mamluks alone creating an Ottoman state where the balance between Muslim/Non-Muslim was much closer than it otherwise would have been.

Just tossing it out there....
 
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I think maybe you should do a review of the history of the time. First, the Ottomans were not digesting the remains of the Byzantine Empire - it has long since ceased to be a factor and what little remained of it, the actual city of Constantinople, had been taken in the first year of Mehmed's reign, 30 years before he went after Italy (he was 21, so even in his early 50s there's no reason he couldn't have lived longer).

Second, the Italian mercenaries were not more than a match for the Ottomans, they lost. Defended by massive fortifications in the most defensible major city ever built.

Third, even Charles V never attempted a field battle with the Ottoman army, because he knew he would lose, and badly. What was the Hapsburg response to Suleyman's move on Vienna? Run for the hills. (to Linz - not a stupid move, but also not exactly broadcasting confidence). And Mehmed's army has a greater technological and doctrinal superiority over Western armies than Suleyman's did.

There seems to be some thought that the Papacy exerted some magical pull on all Christendom. The relationship of the various Catholic nations with the Papacy were very complex and not altogether smooth. We're only a few years from the Reformation here.

The reason Italy wasn't taken was that the person interested in it died. Mehmed's successor, Murad II, just wasn't into military expansion, and the window of opportunity was lost as Spain was created not too long after.

I think this is the last TL involving the Ottomans I'll participate in. We never actually discuss a TL, it's just a group of people who say, "no way, the Ottomans suck". You're talking about an empire at the height of its energy and military advantage, that crushed multiple pan-European crusades and swept away all contenders virtually without reverse. Mehmed did attack Italy, he was successful in establishing a foothold, and the Pope was convinced all was lost and made preparations to flee Rome.

I know everyone things Islam is some evil religion that everyone would resist to their dying breath, but that didn't develop in the lands conquered. First of all, the Orthodox population quite preferred the Ottomans to Latin rulers - the whole not trying to crush their religion and lack of exploitative and excessive taxation, not to mention security and effective government and all - so in Italy there are going to be plenty of people who accommodate themselves to Ottoman rule and are going to plain prefer it. The peasantry are going to have much, much lower taxes, a strong state can always coopt large segments of the nobility, and a peninsula divided into hostile city-states is not the best prospect for beating back a powerful empire. If you're say, Venice, and can accept Ottoman vassalage and thereby gain a huge advantage over your competitors, guess what? You're going to do it.

As for Iberian armies, good luck. United Spain definitely unlocked some major energies, but this is before that, and an Ottoman army operating out of convenient and rather wealthy bases in Granada is simply not a viable target for Castille and Aragon.

Nobody ever said this is a likely scenario, we are discussing a possible scenario. The likelihood of a beylik centered on a little village in Asia Minor becoming a world empire in 100 years with 10 supremely talented monarchs in a row is pretty freakin' small, as is a band of Arabs overthrowing BOTH the Roman Empire and Sassanid Empires in like a year, as is a city state in Italy conquering most of the known world, as is a small tribe of horse nomads uniting Central Asia and sweeping across the entire Eurasian land mass, etc. That's history: fully of implausibility.

First, thirty years is not long enough to change the dynamics of a population and the population of the City was still significant, was still largely orthodox and were still resentful of an occupying alien power.

Second, the Italian mercanaries were more than a match considering their small numbers and in the hand to hand fighting they defeated the Ottoman attackers time after time after time. Multiply this by a large number and this is what the invaders would have faced in Italy.

Third, the Ottoman attack on Vienna was replused and the tactics used by the defenders were successful.

What nonsense that everyone is picking on poor Islam. The outlandish claim that you made that the conquest of Italy and then Spain would be almost a cakewalk is just that a claim. The tragedy of the reconquest was the elimination of a superior cultural and scientific population by a more backward society. Unfortunately for your scenario the northern states were also much more powerful militarily.

To compare the western states with the barbarian kingdoms conquered by Rome is absurd. They were much closer to the Ottomans then any European chiefdom was compared to Rome.
 
First, thirty years is not long enough to change the dynamics of a population and the population of the City was still significant, was still largely orthodox and were still resentful of an occupying alien power.

Second, the Italian mercanaries were more than a match considering their small numbers and in the hand to hand fighting they defeated the Ottoman attackers time after time after time. Multiply this by a large number and this is what the invaders would have faced in Italy.

Third, the Ottoman attack on Vienna was replused and the tactics used by the defenders were successful.

What nonsense that everyone is picking on poor Islam. The outlandish claim that you made that the conquest of Italy and then Spain would be almost a cakewalk is just that a claim. The tragedy of the reconquest was the elimination of a superior cultural and scientific population by a more backward society. Unfortunately for your scenario the northern states were also much more powerful militarily.

To compare the western states with the barbarian kingdoms conquered by Rome is absurd. They were much closer to the Ottomans then any European chiefdom was compared to Rome.

Vienna failed because the Ottomans were delayed for too long in the campaign season by unseasonably bad rains and couldn't stay long enough to maintain a successful siege.

Regarding Italian mercenarties, this is ludicrous. First of all there were only 700 Levantines at Constantinople (Giustiani wasn't actually Genoese, he was a Levantine of Genoese ancestry) - the Byzantines did all the heavy lifting. The whole massive fortifications thing had a whole lot to do with it taking the Ottomans a while to take the city, so a hearty :rolleyes: The first time the defenders actually did actually have to face the Ottomans hand to hand istead of dropping things on them from the walls, the city fell. The contribution of Giustiani was mostly in his diplomatic skills and charisma in getting Venetians, Genovese, and Byzantines to cooperate.

It took under two months to take the most heavily fortified city in the world - if Mehmed hadn't been so impatient about it and taken the city with frontal assault, he could have done it with virtually no casualties.

You can go on with illusions about the resentment against Ottoman rule, but in this period it just wasn't there. The Ottomans in general liberated the "Byzantines" from oppressive Latin rule and were for the most part well-received.

The Ottomans did take Otranto, and it took an Italian-Hungarian army five months to reduce the city garrisoned by only 1,000 Ottoman troops. If Mehmed had lived to pursue the conquest of Italy, he would have conquered Italy, period, just like he defeated Venice and stripped them of all their Aegean and Albanian possessions, the former of which were all Islands and fortified coastal cities. Somehow, these Italians failed, like they did at Constantinople, to be "more than a match" for the Ottomans. :rolleyes:

In any case, if you have nothing to add to the discussion but pooh-poohing it based on apparently incredibe lack of knowledge of the period, then why post at all? Anyway, as life is too short to waste any more time on you, I'm just ignoring you.
 
Hmm what if the Ottomans split Italy with the French creating a kind of buffer. Also, maybe present it to the Orthodox subjects as a chance under the Ottomans to finally pay off those @#%ing Catholics and sack Rome in revenge after all this time. The French get to prop up a puppet Pope who does their bidding slowing down any attempts at Crusade. Maybe even revive the Commune of Rome and use it as a small free-city-state between French N. Italy and Turkish Italy so as to prevent cries of "Get Rome back for Jesus!" With interests focused west instead of East, Mehmed and Selim would probably still have had to fight Uzun Hassan and Ismail, but might have been able to be persuaded to leave the Mamluks alone creating an Ottoman state where the balance between Muslim/Non-Muslim was much closer than it otherwise would have been.

Just tossing it out there....

If the Ottomans took Rome, you would probably end up with two Popes. An Ottoman one in Rome (or even Istanbul), with jurisdiction over all the Catholics of the Ottoman Empire, and one somewhere else like Avignon. This would be interesting. The French Pope might lose legitimacy as a tool of the French crown, whereas the Ottoman pope would obviously be problemmatic for non-Ottoman Catholics.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
I think maybe you should do a review of the history of the time. First, the Ottomans were not digesting the remains of the Byzantine Empire - it has long since ceased to be a factor and what little remained of it, the actual city of Constantinople, had been taken in the first year of Mehmed's reign, 30 years before he went after Italy (he was 21, so even in his early 50s there's no reason he couldn't have lived longer).

Second, the Italian mercenaries were not more than a match for the Ottomans, they lost. Defended by massive fortifications in the most defensible major city ever built.

Third, even Charles V never attempted a field battle with the Ottoman army, because he knew he would lose, and badly. What was the Hapsburg response to Suleyman's move on Vienna? Run for the hills. (to Linz - not a stupid move, but also not exactly broadcasting confidence). And Mehmed's army has a greater technological and doctrinal superiority over Western armies than Suleyman's did.

There seems to be some thought that the Papacy exerted some magical pull on all Christendom. The relationship of the various Catholic nations with the Papacy were very complex and not altogether smooth. We're only a few years from the Reformation here.

The reason Italy wasn't taken was that the person interested in it died. Mehmed's successor, Murad II, just wasn't into military expansion, and the window of opportunity was lost as Spain was created not too long after.

I think this is the last TL involving the Ottomans I'll participate in. We never actually discuss a TL, it's just a group of people who say, "no way, the Ottomans suck". You're talking about an empire at the height of its energy and military advantage, that crushed multiple pan-European crusades and swept away all contenders virtually without reverse. Mehmed did attack Italy, he was successful in establishing a foothold, and the Pope was convinced all was lost and made preparations to flee Rome.

I know everyone things Islam is some evil religion that everyone would resist to their dying breath, but that didn't develop in the lands conquered. First of all, the Orthodox population quite preferred the Ottomans to Latin rulers - the whole not trying to crush their religion and lack of exploitative and excessive taxation, not to mention security and effective government and all - so in Italy there are going to be plenty of people who accommodate themselves to Ottoman rule and are going to plain prefer it. The peasantry are going to have much, much lower taxes, a strong state can always coopt large segments of the nobility, and a peninsula divided into hostile city-states is not the best prospect for beating back a powerful empire. If you're say, Venice, and can accept Ottoman vassalage and thereby gain a huge advantage over your competitors, guess what? You're going to do it.

As for Iberian armies, good luck. United Spain definitely unlocked some major energies, but this is before that, and an Ottoman army operating out of convenient and rather wealthy bases in Granada is simply not a viable target for Castille and Aragon.

Nobody ever said this is a likely scenario, we are discussing a possible scenario. The likelihood of a beylik centered on a little village in Asia Minor becoming a world empire in 100 years with 10 supremely talented monarchs in a row is pretty freakin' small, as is a band of Arabs overthrowing BOTH the Roman Empire and Sassanid Empires in like a year, as is a city state in Italy conquering most of the known world, as is a small tribe of horse nomads uniting Central Asia and sweeping across the entire Eurasian land mass, etc. That's history: fully of implausibility.

Lurker here, I want to comment on this as it is about an area of history I like to study. I am Turkish and the reign of Mehmed II has always been an interesting field of study for me.

I agree with the idea of the post, but I have a bit of nitpicking to do and some additional data to note:

Mehmed's successor was Bayezid II, not Murad II (that's his father and predecessor), though I think this was just an oversight.

However, the reign of Bayezid II derailed the entire Ottoman momentum of conquest. He fought his brother, Cem, and Cem's seeking asylum with the Pope in Rome effectively paralysed the entire Ottoman plan for conquest of Italy and any attacks westwards. Bayezid didn't dare move, for having Cem at his doorstep with a Christian army and a sympathetic rebellion, as Cem did have the legitimate claim on the throne, being the eldest son. Only the virtue of Bayezid's ability to reach the capital faster and a healthy bit of court intrigue (Bayezid was supported by the now-powerful Devshirme class and Enderun viziers coming from that clique. Cem, however, was supported by the deposed Candarli clique -deposed by Mehmed himself following the conquest of Istanbul, no less-, and the supporters of the Turkish aristocrats that went down with them, however, this group had a strong base of support from the Turkish population of western Anatolia.) gave Bayezid the throne, so he was prepared to do just about anything to keep Cem from returning.

You do not even need Mehmed to survive to start a conquest of Italy. Have Cem take the throne: Hell, even having Cem die in a freak accident, leaving Bayezid without his presence as a deterrent, would signal the start of the conquest of the Italian peninsula.

Still, I think a colonization drive eastwards would be more beneficial to the Ottomans in the long run. Though that may be because of my intense dislike (some may even say hatred) of Suleyman and his squandering of the resources and opportunities given to him by his father, my personal favorite, Yavuz Selim.
 
Lurker here, I want to comment on this as it is about an area of history I like to study. I am Turkish and the reign of Mehmed II has always been an interesting field of study for me.

I agree with the idea of the post, but I have a bit of nitpicking to do and some additional data to note:

Mehmed's successor was Bayezid II, not Murad II (that's his father and predecessor), though I think this was just an oversight.

However, the reign of Bayezid II derailed the entire Ottoman momentum of conquest. He fought his brother, Cem, and Cem's seeking asylum with the Pope in Rome effectively paralysed the entire Ottoman plan for conquest of Italy and any attacks westwards. Bayezid didn't dare move, for having Cem at his doorstep with a Christian army and a sympathetic rebellion, as Cem did have the legitimate claim on the throne, being the eldest son. Only the virtue of Bayezid's ability to reach the capital faster and a healthy bit of court intrigue (Bayezid was supported by the now-powerful Devshirme class and Enderun viziers coming from that clique. Cem, however, was supported by the deposed Candarli clique -deposed by Mehmed himself following the conquest of Istanbul, no less-, and the supporters of the Turkish aristocrats that went down with them, however, this group had a strong base of support from the Turkish population of western Anatolia.) gave Bayezid the throne, so he was prepared to do just about anything to keep Cem from returning.

You do not even need Mehmed to survive to start a conquest of Italy. Have Cem take the throne: Hell, even having Cem die in a freak accident, leaving Bayezid without his presence as a deterrent, would signal the start of the conquest of the Italian peninsula.

Still, I think a colonization drive eastwards would be more beneficial to the Ottomans in the long run. Though that may be because of my intense dislike (some may even say hatred) of Suleyman and his squandering of the resources and opportunities given to him by his father, my personal favorite, Yavuz Selim.

Yes, I meant Beyazid. But he was the much older brother, not Cem, although that didn't really matter at this time. The circumstances of his accession certainly derailed attempts on Italy, but that would have been the case for just about anyone. Beyazid was a great ruler - someone needed to consolidate all of Mehmed's gains, and I think the empire needed a man like Beyazid to set the stage for Selim.

I certainly agree that Suleyman is overrated (how hard could it have been to be a successful Sultan in 1520? My dog could have been a glorious Sultan with all those resources at his command. Altough my dog is dead. Maybe even dead, he could have been a great sultan. Certainly better than Selim II...), but then I think Abdulhamid II was one of the greatest sultans, so people don't usually agree with my ratings. Suleyman should have left Hungary a buffer state instead of annexing it directly, and encouraged it to become Protestant - preferably Calvinist.

Anyway, returning to the scenario, Mehmed dying just as the invasion was beginning pretty much killed it. If he had died in May 1453, would the siege of Constantinople been called off? Definitely. He needs to live a little longer until the Ottomans are committed to Italy - maybe just a year or two. After that, Cem is irrelevant, since the Pope will be an Ottoman official by then.

As far as what would be better for the empire, I'm not sure. Scooping up the Mameluke empire is essential, but that's easy. Persia could be defeated, but it's separated by a horrendous mountain barrier that would make Ottoman control very difficult in the long-term. Italy, on the other hand, is rich and populous, and would provide the empire with huge resources for further expansion.

And stop lurking and participate! I'm outnumbered around here!
 

Ice-Titan

Banned
The sole POD I'm proposing is longer-lived Mehmed and the conquest of Italy. This leads rather naturally into intervention in Granada. This was an important window for the Ottomans, before the conquest of Granada and the unification of Spain.

Would France just let the Ottomans conquer the Italian Peninsula? Doubtful.
I believe France would move to counter the Ottomans and there is no way the Ottomans have the strength to fight France/Italy and still intervene in Iberia. Even if France for some unforeseen reason did not intervene, its not like conquering Italy would be a cake walk.

Christianity ended up generally imposed by force or direct political colonization - or by purchasing slaves and baptizing them, whereas Islam spread much more quickly and effectively in it's own way.

I am getting really sick of this “Islam is so tolerant” - “Christians are mindless murders who impose there religion with a sword”. BS. You’re dreaming if you don’t think Islam wasn’t just has bit intolerant and blood thirsty has Christianity was.

That's why I think a very limited Ottoman presence could very well cause large-scale conversion to Islam and create the basis for Ottoman influence or even political control in the New World.

Islam is going to save the Natives from small pox and guns? Europeans are still going to come in and kill/enslave everybody; Natives converting to Islam isn’t going to stop that.
 
1) Would France just let the Ottomans conquer the Italian Peninsula? Doubtful.
I believe France would move to counter the Ottomans and there is no way the Ottomans have the strength to fight France/Italy and still intervene in Iberia. Even if France for some unforeseen reason did not intervene, its not like conquering Italy would be a cake walk.



2) I am getting really sick of this “Islam is so tolerant” - “Christians are mindless murders who impose there religion with a sword”. BS. You’re dreaming if you don’t think Islam wasn’t just has bit intolerant and blood thirsty has Christianity was.



3) Islam is going to save the Natives from small pox and guns? Europeans are still going to come in and kill/enslave everybody; Natives converting to Islam isn’t going to stop that.

1) The France can certainly push their luck in this case. It's not there won't a chance the Ottoman occupiers in Italy won't going to do some stupid mistakes. To expect that as an inevitability, though, is a different matter. But hey, at least the French chance to be able to counter the Turks still is no zero ! ;)

2) Muslims, you mean ? ;)

The muslims certainly had at least 50% of Christians' intolerance and bloodthirstiness. They did force convert people when they had the chance. It's just that they tended to be more pragmatic at doing it. Even Mahmud Ghazni didn't force the Hindus and Buddhist to convert to Islam ! Though the destruction of temples and the looting of their wealths was apparently already enough to make today's India-Pakistan split....

In the world where Ottomans has a holding in America, you're gonna see some heretical muslims migrate there to form a pilgrimage-like colonies. Maybe even the Yezidis ??!

3) For the smallpox and guns, certainly, though for the later it won't be "to save from". For the second part the Europeans will have less wide of a ground for that. Maybe not by much, but still less.
 
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