WI the Ottomans made it to America?

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The Battle of Diu isn't a very good indicator of Ottoman power-projection capabilities in the Med, as there was no direct access to the Indian Ocean from the centers of Ottoman power. Suleyman having to ask his Barbarossa to not sack Rome so as to not embarrass the King of France is probably a better indicator.

I had sort of thought that Ottoman America would have to be mostly a Granadan adventure.

Well yeah; and the Ottoman-France tag team pretty much beat up on Europe for three centuries. But at the same time the Ottomans aren't invincible and their (impressive) OTL military capacities were more geared towards massive grinding land campaigns. When it came to propping up allies overseas, a la Grenada, their record wasn't so impressive. Which isn't to say it's impossible; just if they're going to keep the Strait of Gibraltar open, it's going to take a redistribution of resources that pretty much by definition is going to leave them weaker in other places.

We're not necessarily discussing anything likely, or even remotely likely - just possible. The Ottomans were a lot more knowledgeable about the world's seas and how to navigate them than a lot of people think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis

Er... when did I say the Ottomans weren't seafarers? I just said they're a long, hard way from the Americas.



Oooh...

Although if there's one thing that will get the Tenth Crusade started it's the Turk going after Rome. And the French saw Italy as their property, ditto Spain. The Ottomans are going to run a little short on friends. Well, maybe the Protestants. But in a France-Spain-(Austria?) V Ottomans-Protestants war - taking place in Italy - my money's on the Catholics.



Well, religious refugees are always a good place to start for New World colonies. And despite my whining above, I think the idea has merit; just, as you said, it's going to take a bit of a different Ottoman Empire than OTL's.

Huh - what about Grenadan New World colonies? they're not Ottoman, admittedly, but the Grenadans were pretty well off (well, before Spain came knocking) and have the advantage of being, well, not stuck on the wrong end of the Mediterranean. Say the Ottomans decide to help their brothers in the faith, which doesn't get them colonies but gives the Grenadans enough breathing space to start looking West? Then, in a hundred years or so, the Ottomans can conquer/marry into/otherwise take over Grenada, and pick up the colonies by default? How's that sound?

 

[DuQuense]

There is the ASB Isot route, Think I'll post something

 

[mojojojo]

Hanefite Sunnism strikes me as a faith that would have more success in the New World than Catholicism,

How so????

 

[Ridwan Asher]

This is a to cool discussion for be let drowning. Bump.

 

[Faeelin]

I had sort of thought that Ottoman America would have to be mostly a Granadan adventure.

It's a sticky wicket; any PoD that lets Grenada survive also changes Europe beyond recognition, which makes "Sufi orders versus the Conquistadores" a lot harder to get than you'd think.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

It's a sticky wicket; any PoD that lets Grenada survive also changes Europe beyond recognition, which makes "Sufi orders versus the Conquistadores" a lot harder to get than you'd think.

Why? Sufi orders aren't going to butterfly away, and Islam mostly spreads through the agency of the various orders.

Anyway, it seems to me that an Ottoman New World is going to have to be primarily based on conversion of natives.

The Ottomans differed from the Western European powers in not having a nobility and having no particular social distinction between different ethnicities. You could very well end up with a Cherokee Grand Vizier of the entire empire, for instance.

Thus, a relatively small Ottoman investment could lead to a fairly powerful presence in the New World.

For European states, on the other hand, there was simply no question of Native Americans being anything but inferior subjects, or more likely, just exterminated or removed from valuable land.

 

[Faeelin]

The Ottomans differed from the Western European powers in not having a nobility and having no particular social distinction between different ethnicities. You could very well end up with a Cherokee Grand Vizier of the entire empire, for instance.

Thus, a relatively small Ottoman investment could lead to a fairly powerful presence in the New World.

For European states, on the other hand, there was simply no question of Native Americans being anything but inferior subjects, or more likely, just exterminated or removed from valuable land.

I guess I wasn't clear; in order to get the Ototomans, o r even a Muslim power, in the Ne wWorld, you need a Muslim state with the capacity and technology to engage in trans-Atlantic travel. The failure of the Algerians and Morrocans to do so suggests that a surviving Grenada also wouldn't.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

I guess I wasn't clear; in order to get the Ototomans, o r even a Muslim power, in the Ne wWorld, you need a Muslim state with the capacity and technology to engage in trans-Atlantic travel. The failure of the Algerians and Morrocans to do so suggests that a surviving Grenada also wouldn't.

Did the Algerians and Moroccans ever even once try or even have the idea for that ? That's news to me....

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I guess I wasn't clear; in order to get the Ototomans, o r even a Muslim power, in the Ne wWorld, you need a Muslim state with the capacity and technology to engage in trans-Atlantic travel. The failure of the Algerians and Morrocans to do so suggests that a surviving Grenada also wouldn't.

Are you drunk? Your typing is erratic.

The Algerians and Moroccans didn't "fail" to do so, they had no interest in doing so, and Granada didn't have the opportunity.

 

[Orioes]

Assuming they get past the Pillars of Hercules where are they likely to colonize and what are the colonies going to look like? Economic colonies looking for gold, wood, other resources, prison colonies like Georgia, religious freedom seekers like Plymouth? I've always liked the idea of Boston colonized by dissident Ottoman Karaites or Muslims. Unfortunately the millet system and general non-persecutionist position of the Ottomans makes this a little ASB.

 

[MarkA]

They would have to have Atlantic access, i.e. control over Granada.

What if the expulsion of the Moors and Jews from Iberia leads to Jewish-Ottoman America as refugees depart for the New World from the Ottoman base at Cadiz?

Interesting. Where in the new world would they go, who would lead them and why and why would the most advanced and cultivated people in the known world go to a wilderness when they could choose to go into exile in a civilized society as they did in OTL?

My suspicion is there is a little too much hindsight being used here. The Americas at this time is a backwater and a source of precious metal resources and little else.

 

[Orioes]

Interesting. Where in the new world would they go, who would lead them and why and why would the most advanced and cultivated people in the known world go to a wilderness when they could choose to go into exile in a civilized society as they did in OTL?

My suspicion is there is a little too much hindsight being used here. The Americas at this time is a backwater and a source of precious metal resources and little else.

I could see a segment of the Moorish/Sephardic population if the Sultan or one of his advisers decides their particular brand of religion (perhaps som form Shia/Karaism) shouldn't be encouraged to spread within the Empire. Now I doubt this will be a large portion of the total Moorish/Sephardic population so major colonisation attempts would probably not occur till some years latter when reports of "Thar's gold in them thar hills!" reach the Ottoman Porte.

I wonder what the long-term fate of Ottoman colonies would be. Eventually the religious wars are going to wind down and the Christain courts of Europe are going to realise that while they have been fighting over whether you can sell tickets to the pearly gates those infidel Turks are spreading to the New World. Even if the Ottomans had vassilised Hungary and knocked out the Persians early I think they will have trouble defending their territories on the far side of the world. Perhaps if they formed strong alliances with the Dutch, the English or another rising Protestant naval power they could even their odds a bit.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Assuming they get past the Pillars of Hercules where are they likely to colonize and what are the colonies going to look like? Economic colonies looking for gold, wood, other resources, prison colonies like Georgia, religious freedom seekers like Plymouth? I've always liked the idea of Boston colonized by dissident Ottoman Karaites or Muslims. Unfortunately the millet system and general non-persecutionist position of the Ottomans makes this a little ASB.

The Ottomans certainly persecuted heretical Muslims. Maybe some Sufi order gets proscribed and its adherents flee to the New World...

 

[Faeelin]

The Algerians and Moroccans didn't "fail" to do so, they had no interest in doing so, and Granada didn't have the opportunity.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

Why would the Granadans have an interest in doing so if the Algerians and Moroccans didn't? And more importantly, where would the Granadans get teh capacity to build an ocean-going fleet?

Portuguese efforts were the product of a campaign to develop a Portuguese navy dating back to the 14th century. How do the Granadans acquire a similar capacity?

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Interesting. Where in the new world would they go, who would lead them and why and why would the most advanced and cultivated people in the known world go to a wilderness when they could choose to go into exile in a civilized society as they did in OTL?

My suspicion is there is a little too much hindsight being used here. The Americas at this time is a backwater and a source of precious metal resources and little else.

Let's say Mehmed II lives longer and pursues the conquest of Italy. That suddenly makes support of Granada a serious possibility. It also gives the Ottomans the seafaring expertise of the Italian states.

So maybe now you have Amerigo Pasha in the service of the Sultan exploring the seas.

The Ottomans were actually quicker to adopt wholesale the products of the Americas than were Europeans (probably due to their multinational reach at the confluence of so many trade routes).

Mehmed was focused on rebuilding the Roman Empire, but he was also intensely intellectually curious, not to mention interested in ruling the entire world, so sending a colony to the New World is not out of character. From there, sufi mendicants spread Islam to the natives, and there you go, Amerika-i Osmaniye.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

Why would the Granadans have an interest in doing so if the Algerians and Moroccans didn't? And more importantly, where would the Granadans get teh capacity to build an ocean-going fleet?

Portuguese efforts were the product of a campaign to develop a Portuguese navy dating back to the 14th century. How do the Granadans acquire a similar capacity?

By being vassals of the Ottomans. Algeria had no history of unitary statehood prior to the Ottomans, and even then not so much. Morocco is a different matter, as is Granada - but the Granadans were kind of focused on staying alive, not exploring the seas. Note that Castille and Aragon didn't send out expeditions either, until after they had united into Spain and evicted the Moors. With the Ottomans you have lots of money and lots of Janissaries.

Vassalization of Granada kind of implies conquest of Italy - another boost to naval power.

 

[Faeelin]

Vassalization of Granada kind of implies conquest of Italy - another boost to naval power.

Go away! I have finals!

 

[MarkA]

Let's say Mehmed II lives longer and pursues the conquest of Italy. That suddenly makes support of Granada a serious possibility. It also gives the Ottomans the seafaring expertise of the Italian states.

So maybe now you have Amerigo Pasha in the service of the Sultan exploring the seas.

The Ottomans were actually quicker to adopt wholesale the products of the Americas than were Europeans (probably due to their multinational reach at the confluence of so many trade routes).

Mehmed was focused on rebuilding the Roman Empire, but he was also intensely intellectually curious, not to mention interested in ruling the entire world, so sending a colony to the New World is not out of character. From there, sufi mendicants spread Islam to the natives, and there you go, Amerika-i Osmaniye.

Amerigo Pasha, very good!

But the conquest of Italy is beginning to look a lot like too many PODs to make this a likely scenario.

Although Mehmed may have been intensely curious intellectually, this does not necessarily translate into founding colonies in the Americas even if he had the capacity. For example, while the Dutch, Portugese, Spanish and later the Russians, Americans, French and Germans had the capacity to found colonies in Australia none did. And this was not because of British naval superiority. It was because they lacked the will even though they had the knowledge and capabilty to do so.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Amerigo Pasha, very good!

But the conquest of Italy is beginning to look a lot like too many PODs to make this a likely scenario.

Although Mehmed may have been intensely curious intellectually, this does not necessarily translate into founding colonies in the Americas even if he had the capacity. For example, while the Dutch, Portugese, Spanish and later the Russians, Americans, French and Germans had the capacity to found colonies in Australia none did. And this was not because of British naval superiority. It was because they lacked the will even though they had the knowledge and capabilty to do so.

The point is, Mehmed would surely had the will. If he would have had the capacity, say hello to [insert good Ottoman Carribean founding colony name here]

 

[MarkA]

The point is, Mehmed would surely had the will. If he would have had the capacity, say hello to [insert good Ottoman Carribean founding colony name here]

Why would he have the will?

He did not need more gold. He did not need more slaves. He did not need more iron. He did not need more land. Except to deny those resources to his enemies or rivals. Neither he nor his contempories knew those resources existed in the Americas in sufficent quantities to justify the effort.

What was his motivation? Intellectual curiosity? Not likely a sufficent motivation to expend such wealth for something neither he nor the empire needed. Colonies in Africa, Central Asia or even central Europe maybe - but the Americas?