WI the North German Confederation never united with the southern German states?

Valdemar II

Banned
Sure, the topic is still alive.
But the desire of the man in the street would more often include Austria than not.
Without Bismarck's initiative of 1870, there was hardly another chance for the
Kleindeutsche Lösung soon.
And I do see a significant probability that no German state including Prussia, Saxony,
and Bavaria would form (for long or forever).
But the Northern German Union suggested in the opening post does would already comprise
sth like 80% of the actual German population of 1872.

More like 65% (there's also Germans in Austria, Switzerland, France and Luxembourg)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Actually, the impeirla government did gradually take over more power during its history, as it had the "Kompetenz-Kompetenz" (I love this word :D ), that is the meta-competence to define which competences it has. That it started out with so few powers was indeed a compromise. Basically, it was an extended NGC - even legally so, as it came about as the NGC being joined by the three southern states and then changing its name to German Empire! Hence, it was also built up as NGC plus the three southern states having considerable autonomy. While there was a will to try an united Germany, the southern governments would not have joined at any condition.

And Valdemar: Austria is a different issue than the southern three. I mean, already in 1848 people regogniced that it had basically to be excluded, due to the non-German parts of it. Baden, Bavari aand Württemberg did not have any non-German parts and were purely German states, and would have continued to be seen as such, and hence German unification would not have been seen as quite yet finished.

I disagree, in 1848 they believed the Austrian territories outside the German Confederation should be exclude, they wanted the part in the German Confederation.
 

Susano

Banned
I disagree, in 1848 they believed the Austrian territories outside the German Confederation should be exclude, they wanted the part in the German Confederation.

Thats not the conclusion the Paulskirche Parliamentr eached, which opted for a Kleindeutschland solution. As a prgmatic sollution, yes, ideally they would have wanted to include the German parts of Austria, but nontheless it shows people thought a German unification without Austria to be possible. But if purely German states of middle size like Bavaria, Württemberg and Baden are missing, it wont be pereceived as a German unification, and hence this will remain a political issue.
 
Was it just that? I thought an important reason for Bismarck to leave the southern German states outside his confederation was to increase to power of Prussia in that confederation

Thus explaining why he let them in after the whole besiege-Paris schtick, and Prussia was as dominant as you please. No, it was a mtter of international politics. Bismarck wasn't quite reslved to fight france until very shortly before he did. If he actually had plans as elaborate as he pretnded afterwards, he should have strung the trap in 1867: the French army was in worse shape, the Austrians were in no position to do anything, and the Russians were if anything more benevolant than in 1867.
 

Susano

Banned
Thus explaining why he let them in after the whole besiege-Paris schtick, and Prussia was as dominant as you please. No, it was a mtter of international politics.
Actually, Pompejus has a point. Its the same reason that Hesse-Darmstadt was member of the NGC only for its territories north of the river Main. After all (or at least thats my theory often presented here ;) ), Bismarck did not from the start plan German unification, what he wanted was an uber Prussia, which is what the NGC essentially was. The German Empire came about as a model for a post-war Germany to a war Bismarck did not want, and that was declared by France. So, there were indeed also internal reasons to keep Baden out.

If he actually had plans as elaborate as he pretnded afterwards, he should have strung the trap in 1867: the French army was in worse shape, the Austrians were in no position to do anything, and the Russians were if anything more benevolant than in 1867.
True.
 
Thats not the conclusion the Paulskirche Parliamentr eached, which opted for a Kleindeutschland solution. As a prgmatic sollution, yes, ideally they would have wanted to include the German parts of Austria, but nontheless it shows people thought a German unification without Austria to be possible. But if purely German states of middle size like Bavaria, Württemberg and Baden are missing, it wont be pereceived as a German unification, and hence this will remain a political issue.

The French (which is to say Louis Napoleon), interestingly, imagined that they had won 1866 because, among other reasons, he thought that a system of three Germanies could be maintained permenently, to the French advantage.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Thats not the conclusion the Paulskirche Parliamentr eached, which opted for a Kleindeutschland solution. As a prgmatic sollution, yes, ideally they would have wanted to include the German parts of Austria, but nontheless it shows people thought a German unification without Austria to be possible. But if purely German states of middle size like Bavaria, Württemberg and Baden are missing, it wont be pereceived as a German unification, and hence this will remain a political issue.

Yes it would likely be so, but that doesn't mean that it will inevitable lead to unification, while pan-Scandinavism wasn't as strong as pan-Germanism, it has stayed a political force to modern day in Scandinavia, but we're still not united. You can easily see the same in South Germany where inertia keeps the Southen states outside Germany, even through a significant element in both populations support unification. There's so surprisingly little incentiment for unification beside popular support. North Germany don't need them, and the Southen states can easily survive on their own, no one threaten them, and their economical cooperation with each others and Germany, mean that it won't harm them economical, quite the opposite, because greater cooperation with Austria is quite possible outside Germany.
 
Bismarck did not from the start plan German unification, what he wanted was an uber Prussia, which is what the NGC essentially was.

Plus he needed to silence his political adversaries, for instance the (republican) nationalists.
Sort of unification was actually a good method to do that.

The German Empire came about as a model for a post-war Germany to a war Bismarck did not want

He did not want? Actually, he made it happen, by creating the Ems Dispatch,
or are there completely new findings about that?
 

Susano

Banned
He did not want? Actually, he made it happen, by creating the Ems Dispatch,
or are there completely new findings about that?
Thats hardly a total casus belli leaving no other choice. Napoleon III declared war as a typical element of Napoleonite policy, to distract attention form domestic problems to international affairs. Had Bismarck wanted conflict with France, he would have used the Luxemburg Crisis 1867, or Badens membership application in 1869. Basically, for the Franco-German to be a ploy by Bismarck you need him to have some sort of telepathic control over Napoleon III!
 
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