WI the movie Avatar ended with the Colonel's infamous fan-made monologue?

Puzzle

Donor
uhr... I found it hard to sympathize with the humans in the movie, mainly because of their complete disregard for any of the natives' ideas. They had Sully to tell them all about it, and yet chose to completely disregard all of it. Someone smarter than that corporate leader guy might have worked a lot harder to compromise....
When I watched it I got the impression Earth was going to die if they didn't get the mineral, and that was the rationale for Quaritch not compromising. It's a beautiful movie, but I had a hard time rooting for the cavemen over a desperate humanity.
 
When I watched it I got the impression Earth was going to die if they didn't get the mineral, and that was the rationale for Quaritch not compromising. It's a beautiful movie, but I had a hard time rooting for the cavemen over a desperate humanity.
But see, they never state this in movie. They don't even imply it; they make it rather explicit that the exploitation of Pandora was for economic reasons. And even if Earth were dying, that would make humanity even worse.

Because rather than banal greed being at play, it would mean that rapacious human industry had already killed one planet, and were going to destroy another to keep the Earth on life support. It refashions humanity from merely short-sighted exploiters into an interstellar horde of locusts.
 
What about that monologue makes you think it'd add subtlety to the movie? :p

It's still ASB though because it looks like a nonsensical 3-minute rant that completely derails the pacing, mood, and message of the film and the general quality makes it come across as at best something that wouldn't be allowed on stage for its lack of brevity or clarity and at worst something Stephen Lang would've said in Gods and Generals.

Oh I didn't mean that rant was subtle, I was more talking about the general idea of people being irritated by how simplistic the narrative and themes are. My first paragraph was my attempt to describe why that speech makes absolutely no sense in the movie as it exists. Though I geuss I didn't touch on how 'Fedora'-y it sounds.
 

Puzzle

Donor
Because rather than banal greed being at play, it would mean that rapacious human industry had already killed one planet, and were going to destroy another to keep the Earth on life support. It refashions humanity from merely short-sighted exploiters into an interstellar horde of locusts.
I watched it once in theaters, and I suppose pop culture osmosis could have colored my perspective, however even then I'd probably still root for humanity.
 
I watched it once in theaters, and I suppose pop culture osmosis could have colored my perspective, however even then I'd probably still root for humanity.

I just found the film's message to be way too heavy. And I generally prefer villains over protagonists. So picking which side to back was easy.
 
But see, they never state this in movie. They don't even imply it; they make it rather explicit that the exploitation of Pandora was for economic reasons. And even if Earth were dying, that would make humanity even worse.

Because rather than banal greed being at play, it would mean that rapacious human industry had already killed one planet, and were going to destroy another to keep the Earth on life support. It refashions humanity from merely short-sighted exploiters into an interstellar horde of locusts.

Apparently people are very interested in a movie (and would find their actions heroic no less) where humanity are the villains from Independence Day.
 
Apparently people are very interested in a movie (and would find their actions heroic no less) where humanity are the villains from Independence Day.

To be fair, the Independece Day aliens were out to kill all of humanity and loot the planet and presumably its core as well out of 'lol! because!', as they could have mined the Asteroid Belt or Mars but instead always choose planets with life. The humans in Avatar wanted to uproot one (admittedly huge and culturally important) tree, or at least dig under it. And since the humans are from a corporation, they would have been perfectly fine with trading for the unobtanium if the Na'vi would have been willing to trade.
 
Very much a "might makes right" speech.

Part of it turned up on a poster a while back:
MEgVf.jpg


Reminds me of a similar one from Juan Rico in Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Different situation of course (speak of a like-for-like enemy, not too a mind-linked race of non-technologicals), but the sentiment sounded similar in some respects.
But it was interesting. I caught one of those master's thesis assignments he chucked around so casually; I had suggested that the Crusades were different from most wars. I got sawed off and handed this: Required: to prove that war and moral perfection derive from the same genetic inheritance.

Briefly, thus: All wars arise from population pressure. (Yes, even the Crusades, though you have to dig into trade routes and birth rate and several other things to prove it.) Morals — all correct moral rules derive from the instinct to survive; moral behavior is survival behavior above the individual level — as in a father who dies to save his children. But since population pressure results from the process of surviving through others, then war, because it results from population pressure, derives from the same inherited instinct which produces all moral rules suitable for human beings.

Check of proof: Is it possible to abolish war by relieving population pressure (and thus do away with the all-too evident evils of war) through constructing a moral code under which population is limited to resources?

Without debating the usefulness or morality of planned parenthood, it may be verified by observation that any breed which stops its own increase gets crowded out by breeds which expand. Some human populations did so, in Terran history, and other breeds moved in and engulfed them.

Nevertheless, let's assume that the human race manages to balance birth and death, just right to fit its own planets, and thereby becomes peaceful. What happens?

Soon (about next Wednesday) the Bugs move in, kill off this breed which "ain'ta gonna study war no more" and the universe forgets us. Which still may happen. Either we spread and wipe out the Bugs, or they spread and wipe us out — because both races are tough and smart and want the same real estate.

Do you know how fast population pressure could cause us to fill the entire universe shoulder to shoulder? The answer will astound you, just the flicker of an eye in terms of the age of our race.

Try it — it's a compound-interest expansion.

But does Man have any "right" to spread through the universe?

Man is what he is, a wild animal with the will to survive, and (so far) the ability, against all competition. Unless one accepts that, anything one says about morals, war, politics — you name it — is nonsense. Correct morals arise from knowing what Man is — not what do gooders and well-meaning old Aunt Nellies would like him to be.

The universe will let us know — later — whether or not Man has any "right" to expand through it.

Also, I'm sure I saw a Navi reply to this somewhere a while back, only I can't seem to find it now.
 
Last edited:
God I hated the blue aliens in that movie.. so rightous and mary sue
Agreed. I despise the sort of "Noble Savage" description assigned here. Pandora was a death world filled with the most vicious predators imaginable (an Earth on steroids). They were probably the most vicious of all of them, so they have no moral authority here. If it wasn't for Jake they would have slaughtered every human there if they had a chance.
 
Agreed. I despise the sort of "Noble Savage" description assigned here. Pandora was a death world filled with the most vicious predators imaginable (an Earth on steroids). They were probably the most vicious of all of them, so they have no moral authority here. If it wasn't for Jake they would have slaughtered every human there if they had a chance.
Fairs fair, it is their world, and I know I'd be pretty pissed if someone came onto my property and started tearing up my back-yard looking for flint or some such.
 
Last edited:
Um, hello? Is EVERYBODY here forgetting that part where, in addition to wanting to uproot the Hometree, Colonel Unspellable decides to destroy the very important to the Na'vi Tree of Souls, with the express and explicit purpose of, Quoting the Colonel himself, "Blast[ing] a crater in their racial memory"?

Let's keep in mind that, owing to the Tree of Souls being a major part of the Smurf's USB network, destroying it even if only with TNT would probably have similar effects to, say, dousing the entire Amazon with nerve gas (IIRC, one scientist explicitly cautions the military brass about this possibility) And IIRC the Tree of Souls its self didn't have any Unobtanium

If they had made it explicit that Earth would be dead if they don't get some Unobtanium immediately than maybe the humans would have some more sympathy (Although, as Jello points out the observant types would probably just see Humanity portrayed as the Tyranid Horde). Unfortunately, as it stands, the film's villains look like a bunch of standard-issue money-grubbing Corrupt Corporate Executives who consciously decide to try to annihilate a crucial part of the Smurf's culture (and risk destabilizing the ENTIRE PLANET in the process) because they weren't willing to wait a little longer to get some of those sweet, sweet Money Rocks.

After making someone look that evil, you CANNOT end the film with a monologue designed to make them look good. If you put that monologue in the middle of the film, best before the Colonel launches decides to blow up the Tree of Souls, in order to have a little more moral ambiguity... then it might actually work. But you CAN NOT put it at the end, after the "humanity is full of jerkwads" theme is fully and unquestioningly established established.

(OK, this rant turned out a lot longer than expected. sorry, TL;DR: don't try to make us sympathise with corporate clowns after they consciously try to destroy the native's culture.)
 
Um, hello? Is EVERYBODY here forgetting that part where, in addition to wanting to uproot the Hometree, Colonel Unspellable decides to destroy the very important to the Na'vi Tree of Souls, with the express and explicit purpose of, Quoting the Colonel himself, "Blast[ing] a crater in their racial memory"?

Let's keep in mind that, owing to the Tree of Souls being a major part of the Smurf's USB network, destroying it even if only with TNT would probably have similar effects to, say, dousing the entire Amazon with nerve gas (IIRC, one scientist explicitly cautions the military brass about this possibility) And IIRC the Tree of Souls its self didn't have any Unobtanium

If they had made it explicit that Earth would be dead if they don't get some Unobtanium immediately than maybe the humans would have some more sympathy (Although, as Jello points out the observant types would probably just see Humanity portrayed as the Tyranid Horde). Unfortunately, as it stands, the film's villains look like a bunch of standard-issue money-grubbing Corrupt Corporate Executives who consciously decide to try to annihilate a crucial part of the Smurf's culture (and risk destabilizing the ENTIRE PLANET in the process) because they weren't willing to wait a little longer to get some of those sweet, sweet Money Rocks.

After making someone look that evil, you CANNOT end the film with a monologue designed to make them look good. If you put that monologue in the middle of the film, best before the Colonel launches decides to blow up the Tree of Souls, in order to have a little more moral ambiguity... then it might actually work. But you CAN NOT put it at the end, after the "humanity is full of jerkwads" theme is fully and unquestioningly established established.

(OK, this rant turned out a lot longer than expected. sorry, TL;DR: don't try to make us sympathise with corporate clowns after they consciously try to destroy the native's culture.)

No arguing with that; it's the fact that the movie or better Cameron from second one, use an adamantium tipped drill to put in our mind that: Human are bastard space locust that destroyed earth and the Nav'i are noble savages totally in tune with the nature with their perfect society.
The really really haevy handed and overpreaching aesop of the movie, once you are out of the theater, tend to be really irritating...at least on my case, not counting that's basically Dance with the Wolfs mixed to Pochaontas in space.
 
No arguing with that; it's the fact that the movie or better Cameron from second one, use an adamantium tipped drill to put in our mind that: Human are bastard space locust that destroyed earth and the Nav'i are noble savages totally in tune with the nature with their perfect society.
The really really haevy handed and overpreaching aesop of the movie, once you are out of the theater, tend to be really irritating...at least on my case, not counting that's basically Dance with the Wolfs mixed to Pochaontas in space.
Did we even watch the same movie? The Na'vi were never portrayed as noble savages too pure for this sinful universe.

They were xenophobic, often more concerned by old blood feuds with other tribes than with the real threat, and quite venal enough to have their own internal power struggles. Our heros spend a large portion of the movie overcoming this so they can unite the tribes against the RDC.
 
Did we even watch the same movie? The Na'vi were never portrayed as noble savages too pure for this sinful universe.

They were xenophobic, often more concerned by old blood feuds with other tribes than with the real threat, and quite venal enough to have their own internal power struggles. Our heros spend a large portion of the movie overcoming this so they can unite the tribes against the RDC.

It's not that he had that so hard work doing it and frankly it was more an informed situation than something that i really see from the scene and them being xenophobic well every scene basically scream: we bad exploiters, them good nature lovers...it's all right if they don't want have anything to do with us.
As said, it was a technical breakthrough, well directed and acted, but it lack a lot in term of script...not that Cameron or any produces care with the shitload of money it scored; but there is a reason it more or less forgotten after just 6/7 years.
 
Top