WI: The monks that smuggled silk into the Byzantine Empire also brought Chinese agricultural texts?

[Achaemenid Rome]

In the 550s AD, two Nestorian monks smuggled silkworm eggs from China into the Byzantine Empire for Emperor Justinian. This created the Byzantine silk industry, a thriving source of income for the Eastern Roman Empire. Byzantines held a monopoly on silk for centuries, until the Normans captured Byzantine silkworms to produce silk in Sicilian plantations.

What if, in addition to smuggling silkworm eggs, these Nestorian monks managed to bring a collection of Chinese agricultural or metallurgical texts into the Empire?

How fast would these technologies diffuse outward and what would change in the history of the Eastern Mediterranean?

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

What technologies? I'm at a bit of a loss thinking of anything that China could do that the Byzantines couldn't. Besides, the Romans and Byzantines had regular and extensive trade with China and I believe even an embassy was sent at one point. Its not like they were isolated from each other.

 

[Achaemenid Rome]

What technologies? I'm at a bit of a loss thinking of anything that China could do that the Byzantines couldn't. Besides, the Romans and Byzantines had regular and extensive trade with China and I believe even an embassy was sent at one point. Its not like they were isolated from each other.

I believe China had improved metallurgy in the form of the blast furnace, as well as heavier iron plows that were more efficient than those used in Europe, though I am uncertain about the details.

China and the Byzantines did have regular trade contact, but they traded goods, not technologies or industries. This expedition for silkworm eggs seems like a plausible opportunity to get Chinese agricultural and/or metallurgical tech into Europe before the Middle Ages.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Just means a few more pounds of gold go to Constantinople a year, and the progress of mankind occurs ever so slightly faster. If metallurgy gets improved, then after a while everyone will have whatever advantage that the ERE was given. The end will be the same (or close to), the means may be a bit different.

If a Chinese defector managed to bring gunpowder to Europe in the 6th-11th centuries then a major change would occur. A different way of farming isn't going to do much more than prolong people's lives by a few weeks.

- BNC

 

[GeneralInTheShell]

If the ERE gets the blast furnace in the 6th century that's going to have some pretty dramatic effects as it will likely result in the large scale deforestation of Anatolia and parts of the Balkans which could potentially result in looking towards the large lignite deposits in Bulgaria as a potential alternative source of fuel for production of tools and weapons given the state of endemic warfare between the ERE and the Arabs. A plow better able to till the soil and a lifetime supply of swords may not seem like much, but the potential of industrialization similar to what was going on in late Song China prior to its fall to the Mongols would be massive.

The earliest reference to gunpowder in China is in the 9th century, so unless the ERE invents gunpowder independently then they wouldn't be getting it from China during Justinian's era. It would be pretty revolutionary though. Gunpowder and canons and, more importantly, the fortresses necessary to defend against powerful canons would disrupt feudalism and push Europe towards more centralized states.

Like gunpowder, the printing press is a few centuries away from being invented in China, but paper-making is a possibility and if the ERE makes some of the same advancements as the Caliphate regarding thicker paper, then you could have a blooming paper art industry centered in Constantinople.

 

[Achaemenid Rome]

Just means a few more pounds of gold go to Constantinople a year, and the progress of mankind occurs ever so slightly faster. If metallurgy gets improved, then after a while everyone will have whatever advantage that the ERE was given. The end will be the same (or close to), the means may be a bit different.

If a Chinese defector managed to bring gunpowder to Europe in the 6th-11th centuries then a major change would occur. A different way of farming isn't going to do much more than prolong people's lives by a few weeks.

- BNC

The arrival of three-field crop rotation, the moldboard plow, and iron spades and scythes in Eastern Europe caused populations to double and triple, transforming a largely tribal land of many weak polities into huge, semi-urbanized powerhouses like the Kingdoms of Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary, the Teutonic Order, and the Russian principalities.

Agriculture was absolutely the most important part of any ancient or medieval economy, and was necessary for both population growth and maintenance of the existing population centers. Spread better agricultural methods across the Black Sea, and suddenly, what was formerly a series of hostile steppe empires becomes a wealthy, sedentary region that can be conquered and vassalized.

Gunpowder on the other hand took centuries to actually become useful in battle, starting off as largely useless noisemakers like the hand cannon. For real game changing weapons like the great bombard, the arquebus, and the matchlock, you'd need better metallurgical techniques to become available, like the blast furnace, a technology which needs to either be slowly developed over centuries, or borrowed from China.

If the ERE gets the blast furnace in the 6th century that's going to have some pretty dramatic effects as it will likely result in the large scale deforestation of Anatolia and parts of the Balkans which could potentially result in looking towards the large lignite deposits in Bulgaria as a potential alternative source of fuel for production of tools and weapons given the state of endemic warfare between the ERE and the Arabs. A plow better able to till the soil and a lifetime supply of swords may not seem like much, but the potential of industrialization similar to what was going on in late Song China prior to its fall to the Mongols would be massive.

The earliest reference to gunpowder in China is in the 9th century, so unless the ERE invents gunpowder independently then they wouldn't be getting it from China during Justinian's era. It would be pretty revolutionary though. Gunpowder and canons and, more importantly, the fortresses necessary to defend against powerful canons would disrupt feudalism and push Europe towards more centralized states.

Like gunpowder, the printing press is a few centuries away from being invented in China, but paper-making is a possibility and if the ERE makes some of the same advancements as the Caliphate regarding thicker paper, then you could have a blooming paper art industry centered in Constantinople.

Was a large part of Anatolia, other than the coasts and coastal mountains, densely forested at this time? That would be surprising if true.

Regardless of the existing land cover, I suppose the extra deforestation, as well as more intensive cultivation would put additional stress on the land, which could lead to environmental degradation in Anatolia. Though the Byzantines were pretty good at irrigating arid lands like North Africa and making use of aqueducts to provide water, so they probably could live through it.

 

[DominusNovus]

Its worth noting that some of the technologies discussed here are likely Song technologies, so smuggling them to Justinian's Empire would be quite the trick.

 

[Spelf]

If they wanted better plows, couldn't they just look west? I was under the impression the Germanic groups had heavy plows that were totally ahead of anything Rome had, which paved the way for Western agriculture in the Medieval period.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Gunpowder on the other hand took centuries to actually become useful in battle, starting off as largely useless noisemakers like the hand cannon. For real game changing weapons like the great bombard, the arquebus, and the matchlock, you'd need better metallurgical techniques to become available, like the blast furnace, a technology which needs to either be slowly developed over centuries, or borrowed from China.

Gunpowder took centuries to become useful because no one thought of how to use it effectively. It wouldn't be too hard to create a gunpowder-based grenade or something by making a hollow metal ball, cramming some powder in and attaching a piece of rope set on fire. In an ATL, this could happen a lot more rapidly (and the gunpowder grenade at all) than OTL. It just happened that the 'right people' (ie crazy alchemists) weren't around to see it happen.

The arrival of three-field crop rotation, the moldboard plow, and iron spades and scythes in Eastern Europe caused populations to double and triple, transforming a largely tribal land of many weak polities into huge, semi-urbanized powerhouses like the Kingdoms of Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary, the Teutonic Order, and the Russian principalities.

Agriculture was absolutely the most important part of any ancient or medieval economy, and was necessary for both population growth and maintenance of the existing population centers. Spread better agricultural methods across the Black Sea, and suddenly, what was formerly a series of hostile steppe empires becomes a wealthy, sedentary region that can be conquered and vassalized.

'Eastern Europe', in the sense of approximately modern Russia west of the Urals, was controlled by wandering nomads (the Khazars) that had very few cities, until the arrival of the Vikings around 860. The Byzantines were allied (or at least friendly) with the Khazars, so they don't have the motive to quieten them, for they can be usefully turned on other enemies, especially the Bulgarians. I would be surprised if the Khazars abandoned their decent nomad style for something more settled and less exciting (every nomad likes to loot, no?)

- BNC

 

[Skallagrim]

The blast furnace and paper-making are indeed two things that existed at the time in China and could clearly be of considerable value to the ERE.

And yes, China also had the heavy plough, made of iron and superior to anything any European had at the time... but that one is unlikely, simply because the heavy plough is specifically superior when it comes to working the heavy clay soil found in Northern Europe. In the light soil of southern Europe, the advantages are marginal, and it is unlikely that the ERE would go and adopt the Chinese plough when their own ploughs work fine in their own territory.

That said, however... This:

The arrival of three-field crop rotation, the moldboard plow, and iron spades and scythes in Eastern Europe caused populations to double and triple, transforming a largely tribal land of many weak polities into huge, semi-urbanized powerhouses like the Kingdoms of Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary, the Teutonic Order, and the Russian principalities.

Agriculture was absolutely the most important part of any ancient or medieval economy, and was necessary for both population growth and maintenance of the existing population centers. Spread better agricultural methods across the Black Sea, and suddenly, what was formerly a series of hostile steppe empires becomes a wealthy, sedentary region that can be conquered and vassalized.

...is very accurate. And this:

'Eastern Europe', in the sense of approximately modern Russia west of the Urals, was controlled by wandering nomads (the Khazars) that had very few cities, until the arrival of the Vikings around 860. The Byzantines were allied (or at least friendly) with the Khazars, so they don't have the motive to quieten them, for they can be usefully turned on other enemies, especially the Bulgarians. I would be surprised if the Khazars abandoned their decent nomad style for something more settled and less exciting (every nomad likes to loot, no?)

...is not. The people in that region were nomads because they lacked a plough suitable to work the land with such efficiency that it would become clearly more profitable. But the OTL introduction of the heavy plough and the three field-system (and these two go hand in hand, it would seem) actually did cause those nomads and semi-nomads to settle and get busy working the land. Why? Because with that tech available, working the land becomes way more profitable than raiding.

The truth pertaining to this exact scenario, however, is that the heavy plough did what it did for Northern Europe, but it couldn't do that for Southern Europe. Southern Europe already had highly developed agriculture, and didn't need the heavy plough for that. The heavy soil of Northern Europe kept that region underdeveloped until the heavy plough was invented, so that is where it could make a vast difference. The ERE, however, does not own Northern Europe. And while they could theoretically find out about the heavy plough, I don't see them coming up with the insight that "hey, this would make argiculture in the north much easier, let's export this thing to our vassals, so they'll found farms and cities and become an established bulwark against future barbarian invasions!" That would require ASB levels of visionary insight.

 

[Duke of Nova Scotia]

There is of course the introduction of rice as a new crop. Not to mention the different varieties of pears and berries (goji, goumi, and maybe by chance Haslam. The last one is a stretch, it was more predominantly consumed by Japanese royalty) The real whiz-bang would be the three crop rotation with the introduction of a new starch to the diet. Could we see an earlier risotto?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

There is of course the introduction of rice as a new crop.

Rice was already known

Rice was known to the Classical world, being imported from Egypt, and perhaps west Asia. It was known to Greece (where it is still cultivated in Macedonia and Thrace) by returning soldiers from Alexander the Great's military expedition to Asia. Large deposits of rice from the first century AD have been found in Roman camps in Germany.[67]

 

[Duke of Nova Scotia]

My mistake, i was under the belief it wasn't introduced until the rise of Islam to the east. Thank you for clearing the waters of ignorance.

 

[Achaemenid Rome]

The truth pertaining to this exact scenario, however, is that the heavy plough did what it did for Northern Europe, but it couldn't do that for Southern Europe. Southern Europe already had highly developed agriculture, and didn't need the heavy plough for that. The heavy soil of Northern Europe kept that region underdeveloped until the heavy plough was invented, so that is where it could make a vast difference. The ERE, however, does not own Northern Europe.

Well, here are two maps of soil temperature regime and soil order. I am by no means an expert on medieval plowing technology, nor of global soil types, but Bulgaria seems to have soil more characteristic of eastern and central Europe than of the Mediterranean. At least from my uninformed perspective, this could indicate that the heavy plow could see some use there, in a territory just outside what would have been the Byzantine capital.

 

[Skallagrim]

Well, here are two maps of soil temperature regime and soil order. I am by no means an expert on medieval plowing technology, nor of global soil types, but Bulgaria seems to have soil more characteristic of eastern and central Europe than of the Mediterranean. At least from my uninformed perspective, this could indicate that the heavy plow could see some use there, in a territory just outside what would have been the Byzantine capital.

I do not claim to be a real expert either, but I am familiar with Lynn White's theory regarding soil types, the development of the heavy plough, and the way the relation between these two led to particularly noticably increase in effective land use in specific regions. If we take a good map of European soil types, I can illustrate how - and where! - the effect described by White is relevant. The maps you provide are both very general, being of the whole world. Please allow me to post a more detailed map of European soil types:

White's ideas was specifically about clay soil. That's luvisol, marked with orange and the number fourteen. Later studies have backed up his theory, which basically holds that clay soil is very fertile, but also very hard to plough. You need that heavy plough, but once you get it... spectacular production! A more recent sudy into White's theory - which confirms his findings - can be found here. Another soil for which White's theory would be very valid and relevant is the dark soil found north of the Black Sea, chernozem, marked in brown and with the number six. Chernozem also makes for heavy, but extremely fertile soil. So if White is generally correct, his theory also applies here.

Something to keep in mind: other factors than soil type are relevant. Again, I am no expert, but I recall reading about White's work and it was pointed out that soil in Spain and Greece, though being rich in clay in some reasons, suffered from other factors - such as insufficient hydration - that would make it unsuitable for the intensive agriculture which is, of course, the exact advantage provided by the heavy plough. So we should not get too excited when looking at this map, with its vast stretches of orange and brown.

I don't know much about Bulgaria, but I know it's considerably more hydrated than Greece and Spain. So there is potential there, namely that coastal area west of the Black Sea marked in brown. That's a soil type that would need a heavy plough to be used effectively, and is sufficiently hydrated to be very fertile when that heavy plough is applied there. But it's not very big. And that's, as far as I can tell, the only area owned by the ERE that could really do with a heavy plough. The primary area in Europe that can really benefit from the heavy plough is that vast orange and brown plain, stretching from eastern Germany, north of the Black Sea, and all the way on to the Urals. But that's all outside the ERE.

 

[ersatz-york]

-snip-

Perhaps if the Byzantines had lost Anatolia but managed to hold on to considerable tracts of European land stretching to the Danube, there would be a significant incentive to utilize that land?

What I'm interested in is how the use of improved agricultural techniques and technologies could alleviate the manpower problems(?) that the Byzantines dealt with?

 

[Skallagrim]

Perhaps if the Byzantines had lost Anatolia but managed to hold on to considerable tracts of European land stretching to the Danube, there would be a significant incentive to utilize that land?

What I'm interested in is how the use of improved agricultural techniques and technologies could alleviate the manpower problems(?) that the Byzantines dealt with?

Well, if for some reason the ERE held on to different areas, that would obviously have the potential to change their needs. Provided they still seek out knowledge from China in such an ATL, and they possess areas that really need a heavy plough, the notion of importing it from China becomes more likely. Over time, the regions thus made agriculturally useful will be able to support considerable populations-- as OTL northern Europe demonstrates.

However, that's going to take time. Those populations have to grow from a very thin base. And if we go with the idea that the ERE has lost other areas in exchange, that's going to hurt in the more foreseeable future. No Anatolia, for instance, means a relatively settled area is lost. So initually, the population would actually be reduced. (And the ERE would have less strategic depth in the east, and be more vulnerable.)

 

[Guardian54]

Hey guys? You should remember the Seed Drill, which was invented by Babylonians long ago, but never reached Europe, and a multi-tube version by the Chinese in the 2nd century BC (at latest)

 

[trajen777]

The earliest reference would be 142 and then 300. Also the repeating crossbow would be very valuable

 

[trajen777]

All before 600. China has been the source of manyinnovations, scientific discoveries andinventions.[1] This includes the Four Great Inventions: papermaking, the compass,gunpowder, and printing (both woodblock andmovable type). The list below contains these and other inventions in China attested by archaeology or history. From food would be soybeans.