WI: The mongols fail to conquer Dali

What if the mongols had failed to conquer the mountainous region of Yunnan, contemporaneously controlled by the Dali kingdom? I hear that the mongols were lucky to conquer such a place.
Would the Dali kingdom remain independent for the rest of foreseeable history or is it likely that the post-Yuan chinese would conquer the place anyway? If the former is true, then how will an independent Bai state develop?
 
First I will start by saying I don't know very much East Asian history but the Mongols and their effect on China is definitely interesting. So, I'll take a shot at it.

Let's say the Dali push back the Mongols. The Mongols would actually, likely not bother them after that. The Mongols never liked to worry about one place for too long. So, would the Dali be independent, most likely. Would they be raided from time to time, possibly but the Dali had a pretty safe Kingdom.

Next, will post Yuan Chinese conquer them. Unfortunately, yes. But let's be generous and say no. After all in this timeline the Dali would be more stable, advanced and unified.

An independent Dali state would develop though trade, so they would likely be pretty advanced. The area that they control would be heavily Buddhist, and surrounding areas as well, since the Dali were one of the few people who actually tried to spread Buddhism.

That's just about all I can say on the topic.
 
Sorry for not having much to contribute besides more questions:
I know very little about Dali myself and I wonder, what would the situation look like after a victory against the Mongols or it not happening at all? Could they just pay tribute to the Mongols like Russia? How would they develop afterwards?
 
Sorry for not having much to contribute besides more questions:
I know very little about Dali myself and I wonder, what would the situation look like after a victory against the Mongols or it not happening at all? Could they just pay tribute to the Mongols like Russia? How would they develop afterwards?

Well let's say the Dali win a battle against the Mongols, as I assume that's what you mean.

The Mongols were a horse people, so the Dali would have entrenched themselves and waited for a messenger to come with terms. Assuming you get a messager to come, you have peace as long as both can agree to terms. The Mongols would have likely just demanded tribute and been on their way, respecting the Dali as honorable fighters. Which the Dali like many East Asians were honorable because of their religious beliefs.

After peace, I can only guess and wonder. The Dali would be a peaceful but advanced trade people just as they were in our timeline. Other then that, like specifics, I have no idea.
 
I don't know why, but the thread's title now made me think of a Salvador Dali painting where mongol horsemen ride over his body :p

If the Dali kingdom survives, then how will it interact with Burma? Since the chinese will most likely lack a land link with India and Burma...
Can the Dali conquer the interior regions of Burma if a war between the two states happens down the line for whatever reason?
 
I don't know why, but the thread's title now made me think of a Salvador Dali painting where mongol horsemen ride over his body :p

If the Dali kingdom survives, then how will it interact with Burma? Since the chinese will most likely lack a land link with India and Burma...
Can the Dali conquer the interior regions of Burma if a war between the two states happens down the line for whatever reason?

Yes, in this timeline the Chinese would be less....well Chinese. With the fall of Dali and the weakness the Mongols inflicted on the Dali, the Chinese were able to conquer their land. In this timeline, Burma as we know it would be defined by the Dali.
 
I don't know why, but the thread's title now made me think of a Salvador Dali painting where mongol horsemen ride over his body :p

If the Dali kingdom survives, then how will it interact with Burma? Since the chinese will most likely lack a land link with India and Burma...
Can the Dali conquer the interior regions of Burma if a war between the two states happens down the line for whatever reason?

I've actually been reading the region's history for the past hour and if Dali were to pull off a stunning military victory (or were facing a less interested Mongol Empire), they had some great potential for expansion.

Dai Viet ruled over northern Vietnam, with the rest of it being split up by two states, the Khmer Empire and Champa. Dai Viet successfully fended off attacks from the Khmer Empire throughout the 1200s, but the Dali Kingdom could take advantage of an attack to invade themselves, getting a coastline.

Chagatai ruled over Central South East Asia (parts of modern day Thailand and Laos) at this time and further west the Kingdom of Pagan (the first state to roughly encompass modern Burma) was in a decline and would collapse towards the end of the 1200s. Tibet was also fragmented at this time and if the Mongols aren't interested (they didn't even establish contact with Tibet until 1240 after all), an expansionist Dali could take advantage and carve out a really strong empire in Southeast Asia if it wanted to.

I'm not sure how long such an empire could last (the information I can find is so limited) but it could have quite the influence over the region and its history.
 
I've actually been reading the region's history for the past hour and if Dali were to pull off a stunning military victory (or were facing a less interested Mongol Empire), they had some great potential for expansion.

Dai Viet ruled over northern Vietnam, with the rest of it being split up by two states, the Khmer Empire and Champa. Dai Viet successfully fended off attacks from the Khmer Empire throughout the 1200s, but the Dali Kingdom could take advantage of an attack to invade themselves, getting a coastline.

Chagatai ruled over Central South East Asia (parts of modern day Thailand and Laos) at this time and further west the Kingdom of Pagan (the first state to roughly encompass modern Burma) was in a decline and would collapse towards the end of the 1200s. Tibet was also fragmented at this time and if the Mongols aren't interested (they didn't even establish contact with Tibet until 1240 after all), an expansionist Dali could take advantage and carve out a really strong empire in Southeast Asia if it wanted to.

I'm not sure how long such an empire could last (the information I can find is so limited) but it could have quite the influence over the region and its history.

I couldn't have said it better. The Dali really were a people who could have achieved greatness, if fate had been kinder to them.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
it will be landlocked version of Burma/Tibet: heavily Buddhist, frequent minority insurgency, heavy Chinese influence.

according to some legend Mongol victory is due to they finding alternative pass to enter valley. in TTL, Mongols couldn't find another way to enter and simply demand tribute (and possibly increase influence of Lamaism). Dali then survive Yuan, Ming and Qing but accept their suzerainty and pay tribute.
 
it will be landlocked version of Burma/Tibet: heavily Buddhist, frequent minority insurgency, heavy Chinese influence.

according to some legend Mongol victory is due to they finding alternative pass to enter valley. in TTL, Mongols couldn't find another way to enter and simply demand tribute (and possibly increase influence of Lamaism). Dali then survive Yuan, Ming and Qing but accept their suzerainty and pay tribute.

As President Benedict Arnold said, the Dali had the ability to create an empire. One of the few Asian Kingdom, had fate been kinder to them.

With that said, Burma as we know it, even Vietnam and Laos could be changed forever. If Dali wasn't conquered they would have expanded, possibly even to pay off tribute. If it was to pay off tribute then the Chinese would probably just ignore them. Dali might even turn on the Chinese eventually. In the modern world we could have a massive country in Indo-China, if fate had just been kinder to the Dali.

Seriously the more information I find on the Dali the more I wish they weren't conquered.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
i always liking Nanzhao and Dali, but its difficult for them to be more successful. Extreme mountainous terrain with a lot of little inhabited valley that isolated from others; numerous minority tribes that inhabiting Yunnan (Bai, Yi, Tibetan, Hmong, Chuang, etc); surrounded by much bigger river valley civilization (Yangtze China, Red Viets, Irawaddy Burmese); presence of warlike tribes surrounding them from Tibet to Vietnam to Yi. its like extreme version of Switzerland.

and besides an Empire would certainly eliminate diversity that make Yunnan so fascinating.
 
i always liking Nanzhao and Dali, but its difficult for them to be more successful. Extreme mountainous terrain with a lot of little inhabited valley that isolated from others; numerous minority tribes that inhabiting Yunnan (Bai, Yi, Tibetan, Hmong, Chuang, etc); surrounded by much bigger river valley civilization (Yangtze China, Red Viets, Irawaddy Burmese); presence of warlike tribes surrounding them from Tibet to Vietnam to Yi. its like extreme version of Switzerland.

and besides an Empire would certainly eliminate diversity that make Yunnan so fascinating.

It does have that whole Zomia thing going, but a Dali Empire as discussed isn't too far different than the Tibetan Empire at its height and its highly unlikely it would eliminate diversity in Yunnan or surroundings anymore than the Chinese did.
 
Let's say the Dali push back the Mongols. The Mongols would actually, likely not bother them after that. The Mongols never liked to worry about one place for too long. So, would the Dali be independent, most likely. Would they be raided from time to time, possibly but the Dali had a pretty safe Kingdom.

The Mongols spent decades to conquer the Southern Song.
 
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