MiG, of course, was no stranger to canards, having tried them from 1945...
http://www.aviastar.org/air/russia/mig-8.php
http://www.aviastar.org/air/russia/mig-8.php
WI: The Mikoyan-Gurevich Ye-8 Entered Service
- Thread starter Delta Force
- Start date
Delta Force
Banned
The Saab Viggen and variants of the Mirage III were equipped with canards. Proposed variants of the B-58 Hustler and F-106 Delta Dart also would have had canards, and the B-70 Valkyrie was designed with canards from the beginning.
That configuration wasn't seen again on civil aircraft until the 1980s.
Delta Force
Banned
The Ye-8 would be the MiG-23 of its timeline and thus one of the primary Soviet fighter/interceptors encountered by Western air forces in the 1960s. Might the arrival of the Ye-8 and the combined with the inaccurate reports about the MiG-25 being a highly maneuverable fighter lead NATO forces to develop more advanced day fighters and/light weight fighters? It seems at the very least an affordable and reliable design would be required for equipping NATO client states, if not for service in major air forces.
Perhaps an earlier F-20 type aircraft would be developed?
Perhaps an earlier F-20 type aircraft would be developed?
Delta Force
Banned
Any ideas for NATO and other light fighter/day fighter designs that could counter the Ye-8 in the 1960s? The Dassault Mirage F1 seems like it would have some large success in such an environment, and it seems like the United States might go with something similar to the Northrop F-5E/F Tiger II or an earlier F-20 Tigershark analogue. Lockheed might try to go it alone with the CL-1200 Lancer, perhaps marketing it to the established F-104 Starfighter market. I don't know what the British and PRC might have done though, if anything. Perhaps the British would try to develop an improved Folland Gnat (akin to a significantly improved HAL Ajeet) and the PRC would try to develop their own Ye-8 type aircraft based on the Chengdu F-7?
There were some supersonic developments proposed of the Gnat but unfortunately Mr Petter, Follands chief designer, would not consider making any changes to his design to accommodate the RAF; things got so bad that procurement staff would go to extreme lengths to avoid him.
The USAF have always wanted somthing bigger than the F5E as they wanted a) more range (and/or) b) more payload c) better radar than could be fitted into something the size of an F5 in the 60's. By the late 70's, radars were much more compact and capable, however what really killed the F20 was that if if had been bought by the USAF, NATO or other friendly countries it would have reduced the total F16 buy and therefore increased the Falcons unit cost. The other issue was that the F20 wing was too highly loaded and suffered from high induced drag in sustained turns, it really needed a bigger wing which was offered to the Swedes who then opted to build the Grippen instead.
Someone actually suggested that the Germans could have bought the whole F20 program for peanuts and avoided getting mixed up with the Eurofighter program, which was more plane than the Lufwaffe wanted anyway. They actually argued for a smaller aircraft than Typhoon and came up with a design quite close to that used in the X31 program. It would also have avoided all the German foot dragging which delayed the program and ran up costs for the other partners.
The USAF have always wanted somthing bigger than the F5E as they wanted a) more range (and/or) b) more payload c) better radar than could be fitted into something the size of an F5 in the 60's. By the late 70's, radars were much more compact and capable, however what really killed the F20 was that if if had been bought by the USAF, NATO or other friendly countries it would have reduced the total F16 buy and therefore increased the Falcons unit cost. The other issue was that the F20 wing was too highly loaded and suffered from high induced drag in sustained turns, it really needed a bigger wing which was offered to the Swedes who then opted to build the Grippen instead.
Someone actually suggested that the Germans could have bought the whole F20 program for peanuts and avoided getting mixed up with the Eurofighter program, which was more plane than the Lufwaffe wanted anyway. They actually argued for a smaller aircraft than Typhoon and came up with a design quite close to that used in the X31 program. It would also have avoided all the German foot dragging which delayed the program and ran up costs for the other partners.
Delta Force
Banned
I read about Petter for one of my timelines. However, he left Folland after it was acquired by Hawker Siddeley in 1963, so it's possible the company could pick up the design under a new management team.
There are actually quite a few similarities between the Tigershark and Grippen when you look at the specifications. The major difference is that the Grippen has almost double the wing area. I wouldn't be surprised if the Swedes used the big wing Tigershark design as the design standard for what would become the Grippen. The issue is that a big wing Tigershark would have significantly impacted F-16 sales because it would be a multirole aircraft instead of a fighter/interceptor with light attack capabilities. Of course, as a counter to the Ye-8 it's possible that there might not be an F-16.
I know the RoK considered licensed domestic production of the Tigershark. Licensed production of light fighters like that could have been an interesting option for nations looking to develop an aerospace industry. I could see Imperial Iran, the RoK, Turkey, and some South American nations doing something like that.
Delta Force
Banned
I didn't know about the J-7MF, but I noticed it on some later PRC aircraft. It's close enough that this came up while searching for images of the J-7MF.
Also, I found this during the same search. Beijing SuperWing proposed building some developments of the J-7 for the export market, the CY-1 and LFC-16. They were essentially big wing developments of the J-7/MiG-21, and so essentially an analogue for the F-20. Apparently it was presented to Guizhou, but the PRC government decided to go ahead with the J-17 program instead.
There's also the Super Sabre program that the PRC undertook with Grumman in the 1980s as an attempt to modernize the J7 design.
The PRC could probably do the aerodynamics on its own, but they would probably have to source the avionics and engines from elsewhere. Perhaps Albania or the DPRK could help in that regard?
I think it would depend on the timescale, if you are looking at the Chinese building a version in the 70's then they would rely on indigenous manufacture for avionics and propulsion. It is unlikely they would be able to source engines from the West as the only countries making military engines are the US, UK and France with most other countries making engines (like Sweden, Japan etc) building under licence. In the 80's and 90's things open up a lot, it would be easier to get agreement to sell both engines and avionics to the PRC, at least until Tianamin square and even then low profile items like avionics would be doable as long as it was done via a third party. The Israeli's are claimed to have sold avionics from the cancelled Lavi fighter project to China along with missile technology.
I think one of the reasons the YE8 was not proceeded with and the Mig 23/27 was, may have been partly the result of the Israeli pre-emptive strike in the 6 day war in 1967. I suspect the Russians wanted better short field performance from their fighters and strike aircraft and also increased loiter time which was more readily achievable with with swing wings.
I think one of the reasons the YE8 was not proceeded with and the Mig 23/27 was, may have been partly the result of the Israeli pre-emptive strike in the 6 day war in 1967. I suspect the Russians wanted better short field performance from their fighters and strike aircraft and also increased loiter time which was more readily achievable with with swing wings.
Delta Force
Banned
The Ye-8 or a related PRC design would enter service sometime in the mid to late 1960s, or the early 1970s. That means it might see its combat debut in Vietnam and/or the Arab-Israeli wars, both of which had massive impacts on future air and land combat. A Ye-8 type design could have huge implications for the development of air combat and the post-Vietnam generation of aircraft, tactics, and officers.
Delta Force
Banned
What kind of aircraft would have served alongside the Ye-8, seeing as it was competing with another aircraft (the future MiG-23) for adoption? Would procurement of both have been an option, or does the Ye-8 becoming the MiG-23 mean that the historical MiG-23 becomes an experimental prototype?
Delta Force
Banned
Those were likely with the Tumansky R-21 engine. What if the other more successful developments of the Tumansky R-11 had been used instead, such as the Tumansky R-13 and eventually the Tumansky R-25, while work on the more advanced engine continued?