WI the MBB Lampyriade gets built?

[MrHaakwood]

As the title says: What if Germany developes the MBB Lampyriade to full function and built it as an replacement for some of their fighters in the 90ies?
What would the reaction from the other NATO countries be?
How would this effect the development of the Eurofighter and the other 5-Generation fighters?
Is the platform even workable?
Discuss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBB_Lampyridae

 

[gloster meteor mk3]

It would be nothing more than a technical demonstrator at best at worst it would be a waste of money, the NATO countries would be concerned but it looks like a smaller f117a nighthawk so the Americans would ask where the designs came from . The Typhoon would not be started until about 95- 96 and first built in 2001-2003 so a big knock on effect for the conglomerate, no work share for any of the four countries and loss of jobs for UK,Spain and Italy and it would mean the death call of British fighter aircraft production which we could not get back, we would be dependent on either French or American planes.

 

[Pseudo]

The Lampyriade was developed independently of the F-117a, though both were based on the work of Pyotr Ufimtsev. It seems to have been cancelled when a visiting group of USAF officers inspected it at the MBB factory in 1987 and mentioned that the USAF had had an aircraft based on the same principles in service for six years.

 

[altamiro]

It would be nothing more than a technical demonstrator at best at worst it would be a waste of money, the NATO countries would be concerned but it looks like a smaller f117a nighthawk so the Americans would ask where the designs came from.

a) why would this be a waste of money while F117 wasn't?
b) why would other NATO countries be concerned? Except concerned as in "how much do 50 of those cost and can we build 45 of them at home in license agreement"?
c) The designs come from a book by a Russian mathematician that is available at any library to anyone who asks, and the blocky shape of both Lampyridae and F117 comes from the fact that 1980s computers were not powerful enough to calculate smoother shapes. There is nothing terribly secret behind stealth technology, only lots of money and will to spend it to design a plane from scratch. All the underlying principles are well known since 1920s - 1950s.

The Typhoon would not be started until about 95- 96 and first built in 2001-2003 so a big knock on effect for the conglomerate, no work share for any of the four countries and loss of jobs for UK,Spain and Italy and it would mean the death call of British fighter aircraft production which we could not get back, we would be dependent on either French or American planes.

Why? The Lampyridae itself even if built is going to be mostly a technical demonstrator; a serial plane based on it may well end up being built all across Europe. I doubt MBB alone would have the capacity to build enough of them even just to supply Bundesluftwaffe, not to mention the rest of European air forces. And large series is a great way to reduce the costs.

There is however a story, that after the first flight demonstrations of Lampyridae an American delegation visited MBB headquarters; after which the plans were hurriedly scrapped. Whether it was a political pressure by the US government, or merely Lockheed being themselves (F 104 Starfighter, anyone?) and bribing the potential competition into acquiescence, is not known.

 

[gloster meteor mk3]

Which cost how much F22 and F35 and B2 anyone. it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to build the typhoon and a lot more of them for the other European NATO countries.

 

[altamiro]

The Lampyriade was developed independently of the F-117a, though both were based on the work of Pyotr Ufimtsev. It seems to have been cancelled when a visiting group of USAF officers inspected it at the MBB factory in 1987 and mentioned that the USAF had had an aircraft based on the same principles in service for six years.

F117 was for 4 years in service by then, not for 6 - and since USA were not going to export F 117 even to closest allies, the mentioning of this alone should not mean the project is worthless if this were the only way to get a reduced RCS plane. If it was known that the Soviets operate similar aircraft that would be another matter...

 

[Just Leo]

I regret that the aircraft was cancelled without any possibility of discerning its performance or viability, let alone its cost. The nature of its cancellation doesn't seem to be known, or is it?

 

[gloster meteor mk3]

which they did not due to costs. the costs for the design, the costs for the materials needed, the cost go on and on plus what is the point of wasting money that was going on a stealth aircraft when there was plans to build a gen 4.5 aircraft that is arguably one of the best aircraft in the world and will only get better, the F/A 18, f16 and f15 from America Rafael m from France and MiG 29 fulcrum, SU 27 flanker d from Russia would be a better and cheaper option and a lot more safer option at that.

 

[Pseudo]

Which cost how much F22 and F35 and B2 anyone. it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to build the typhoon and a lot more of them for the other European NATO countries.

Given the costs of the Eurofighter, I'm no sure that the difference would be as big as you think.

My problem is that given its size the Lampyriade would likely have a fairly short range and small payload, so it wouldn't really be suitable as a replacement for the Typhoon. I'd also have to wonder about its handling characteristics. Clearly it's not meant to be a dogfighter, but in war it's inevitably going to end up in one and it's not going to come out of it well.

 

[altamiro]

which they did not due to costs. the costs for the design, the costs for the materials needed, the cost go on and on plus what is the point of wasting money that was going on a stealth aircraft when there was plans to build a gen 4.5 aircraft that is arguably one of the best aircraft in the world and will only get better, the F/A 18, f16 and f15 from America Rafael m from France and MiG 29 fulcrum, SU 27 flanker d from Russia would be a better and cheaper option and a lot more safer option at that.

Costs may have been a reason, and shortsightedness (why build a low RCS plane with mediocre flying abilities compared to Rafale or Eurofighter). The flight performance of the F117 were quite shitty in comparison to any other contemporary military plane too - if not for the radar evasion capacities it would be a sitting duck for anything built after 1950. Lampyridae would not be much better, and (at least as it was built) even less useful due to smaller payload and shorter range. As a tech demonstrator it may well have sparked an alternative stealth "pseudo Eurofighter" project with capabilities probably somewhere between F 117 and F 22.

 

[Pseudo]

F117 was for 4 years in service by then, not for 6 -

Sorry, yeah. I'd recalled the date of its first flight rather than its the date it entered service, my bad.

and since USA were not going to export F 117 even to closest allies, the mentioning of this alone should not mean the project is worthless if this were the only way to get a reduced RCS plane. If it was known that the Soviets operate similar aircraft that would be another matter...

I think it would be more the case that MBB would come to the realisation that they were actually quite far behind the US in stealth technology given that the B-2 was only a couple of years away from its first flight. Discovering that your cutting-edge stealth fighter was going to have an RCS at least double that of a strategic bomber with a 50m+ wingspan would undoubtedly come as a shock.

 

[gloster meteor mk3]

where as the typhoon was and is made to dogfight and the amount of weaponry you can carry is more than any fighter built or in the works 13 hard points plus the upgrades you can get or in the works will make it one of the best aircraft in the world and is capable of detecting stealth aircraft though IR and beat two f15s in a two on one engagement before they shouted break off. It does have some stealth characteristics built in one is a lower RCS passive sensors and supercruise at mach 1 without after burners.

 

[altamiro]

Sorry, yeah. I'd recalled the date of its first flight rather than its the date it entered service, my bad.

I think it would be more the case that MBB would come to the realisation that they were actually quite far behind the US in stealth technology given that the B-2 was only a couple of years away from its first flight. Discovering that your cutting-edge stealth fighter was going to have an RCS at least double that of a strategic bomber with a 50m+ wingspan would undoubtedly come as a shock.

This logic would mean that all military plane builders in the world can just close shop and go home since they are behind F 22 on stealth / flight performance balance.

There is fairly little known about the RCS of the Lampyridae but it is claimed that it was lower than that of F 117 - not surprising since it was also smaller. Also, I do not believe that USA manages to keep a flying plane type completely secret, even against other countries, for 4-6 years - it is easier to hide things from the public for a while but I bet a lot of money that the NATO (and probably WP) governments were aware of F 117 existence and at least basic characteristics within a year of it's maiden flight. Czechoslovakian air defence had a system of "passive listening" radars designed to detect low RCS objects by 1987 - which presumes that they were aware of such things at least a few years before that. Unless the entire Bundeswehr had their collective head up their behind they were aware of those things too.

 

[gloster meteor mk3]

by that reasoning the f35 should not of gotten off the drawing board never mind flying.

 

[altamiro]

where as the typhoon was and is made to dogfight and the amount of weaponry you can carry is more than any fighter built or in the works 13 hard points plus the upgrades you can get or in the works will make it one of the best aircraft in the world and is capable of detecting stealth aircraft though IR and beat two f15s in a two on one engagement before they shouted break off. It does have some stealth characteristics built in one is a lower RCS passive sensors and supercruise at mach 1 without after burners.

Yes to all of that. It is also an aircraft that has been designed 10-15 years later and for different purposes. F 117 was a niche weapon and Lampyridae would have been as well; the experience collected with testing and training using those planes would go into next generation of the planes.

The question is not so much how the Eurofighter performs against F-15 - I would be very interested in some mock engagement between it and J-20 or Sukhoi T-50

 

[gloster meteor mk3]

If it can take on the F22 then it can take anything on plus the helmets for the typhoon would negate the advantages of stealth anyway. IR and NV would screw any stealth aircraft up.

 

[altamiro]

If it can take on the F22 then it can take anything on plus the helmets for the typhoon would negate the advantages of stealth anyway. IR and NV would screw any stealth aircraft up.

The point of stealth is not to be completely invisible but to reduce the distance at which a missile gets a lock on you (or to break the lock easily), and to reduce the distance at which you are detected. With a radar you can detect a plane (non-stealth) at 100-200 km easily; IR gives you a significantly shorter range.
Some Russian media place T-50 in the same performance category as F-22 but praise J-20 as significantly more capable in terms of both RCS and flight characteristics. It is also quite a bit larger than the other two.

 

[gloster meteor mk3]

plus the tech demonstrator of replica does help in finding stealth aircraft.

 

[sparky42]

plus the tech demonstrator of replica does help in finding stealth aircraft.

Does anyone notice the difference in your posts? You tout the BAe Replica as one of the better options instead of the f35 in other threads and took issue with reality of it being pointed out, while you seem very negative to the German design.

Why? Why do you think a tech demonstrator from the UK is a superior option, but a German design is a non runner?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Also, I do not believe that USA manages to keep a flying plane type completely secret, even against other countries, for 4-6 years - it is easier to hide things from the public for a while but I bet a lot of money that the NATO (and probably WP) governments were aware of F 117 existence and at least basic characteristics within a year of it's maiden flight. Czechoslovakian air defence had a system of "passive listening" radars designed to detect low RCS objects by 1987 - which presumes that they were aware of such things at least a few years before that. Unless the entire Bundeswehr had their collective head up their behind they were aware of those things too.

Considering that Tom Clancy incuded F117s in Red Storm Rising, published in 1986, two years before the plane was officially acknowledged, it must have been relatively well known in the right circles. Which I hope would have included (portions of) the west german government.

Yes, his plane was not precisely an f117, but close enough.