WI: The Martyr of the Vatican

[Polish Eagle]

IOTL, after the capture of Rome by the Italian army, Pope Pius IX refused to yield his claim to the entirety of the Papal States. The Papacy and the Italian kingdom would remain at odds until Mussolini came to power.

What if things got worse?

Instead of the Prisoner of the Vatican, Pope Pius IX becomes the Martyr of the Vatican. An Italian nationalist assassinates him shortly after Rome falls, declaring something to the effect of 'all who stand in the way of the fatherland will end the same way' when he's arrested.

Exactly how badly could that mess up Italian-Catholic relations in the future?

Would the Papacy relocate?

 

[Yuelang]

it would end very badly, with an ironic backslash among the Italian catholics that if they want to unite Italy, they must be united under papal banner...

Papacy may relocate somewhere else at first, but it would make a comeback HARD when the Kingdom of Italy start being disstatisfication to the people. Just imagine a much more violent March on Rome done by Catholic Priests and people directly want to dethrone Italian King and re-declare Italy as Papal State

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

Yea in no way does this end well for Italy. It would tie Italian nationalism to anti-Papacy and violent revolutionaries and probably cause a huge backlash amongst Italians. Italians were hostile to him as a worldly leader but generally he was popular as a spiritual leader. If he's assassinated after Rome falls it's going to be seen as murdering the Pope, not deposing an unpopular ruler since he's already powerless. It's also going to make the Italian government into villains and crazed revolutionaries in the eyes of other governments.

Depending on the details you could probably butterfly it anywhere from a minor event forcing Italy to take a more moderate approach to Church lands to a major event undermining the nationalist movement.

 

[Driftless]

I'm not Catholic, but I cannot see any situation where the Vatican leaves Rome. The Pope is the successor to St Peter, and Rome is where he was martyred. If anything, this POD would more likely entrench the church to Rome. Plus by the connection of Pope Pius & St Peter and their respective martyrdoms to the same location.....

 

[Grand_Panjandrum]

I'm not Catholic, but I cannot see any situation where the Vatican leaves Rome. The Pope is the successor to St Peter, and Rome is where he was martyred. If anything, this POD would more likely entrench the church to Rome. Plus by the connection of Pope Pius & St Peter and their respective martyrdoms to the same location.....

The 14th century would like a word. Although, I do agree that it is unlikely the Papacy would have to relocate, as France and/or Austria would happily oblige in a prompt invasion.

 

[JennyB]

The 14th century would like a word. Although, I do agree that it is unlikely the Papacy would have to relocate, as France and/or Austria would happily oblige in a prompt invasion.

Then how many Divisions would the Pope have?

 

[lukedalton]

it would end very badly, with an ironic backslash among the Italian catholics that if they want to unite Italy, they must be united under papal banner...

Papacy may relocate somewhere else at first, but it would make a comeback HARD when the Kingdom of Italy start being disstatisfication to the people. Just imagine a much more violent March on Rome done by Catholic Priests and people directly want to dethrone Italian King and re-declare Italy as Papal State

Don't exagerate, nobody in italian politics is so stupid to force the church to leave Rome, it will be backlash surely but Pio IX stance already give birth to a strong anti-clericalism in Italy and probably nobody will miss him.
The more probable thing is that the King and goverment send their condolence, some political excuse, maybe some cosmetic concession and approach the successor to normalize the situation and anyone that's not that sad spitefull man of Pope Pio IX will be better

regarding A-H and France, the first is still licking is wound from the Austro-Prussian war and France is still entangled in the Franco-Prussian war...so they have other things to do.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

French got all anti-clerical after the Revolution anyway, they wouldn't be lending out Avignon to the Pope again.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

French got all anti-clerical after the Revolution anyway, they wouldn't be lending out Avignon to the Pope again.

No France went anti-Clerical in the late 1870s after the failure of a third Bourbon Restoration. However, if the Pope is murdered in the Vatican you might see an upswing of faithful in Catholic countries like France, Spain, Austria and Italy. Not sure what this upswing would actually mean however. Maybe an earlier Italian-Vatican treaty?

 

[LordKalvan]

Don't exagerate, nobody in italian politics is so stupid to force the church to leave Rome, it will be backlash surely but Pio IX stance already give birth to a strong anti-clericalism in Italy and probably nobody will miss him.
The more probable thing is that the King and goverment send their condolence, some political excuse, maybe some cosmetic concession and approach the successor to normalize the situation and anyone that's not that sad spitefull man of Pope Pio IX will be better

regarding A-H and France, the first is still licking is wound from the Austro-Prussian war and France is still entangled in the Franco-Prussian war...so they have other things to do.

All of this and more. Pius IX was truly a sad, spiteful and vengeful man with blood-stained hands (not only his refusal to negotiate a surrender of Rome without bloodletting - 50 Italians and 20 Papal troops died for nothing - but also the many tens of Italian patriots that were sent to the gallows under his papacy), the pope who upon his return in Rome in 1850 (backed by the bayonets of foreign troops) closed again the Ghetto of Rome, the pope of Quanta Cura and of the Syllabus, of Vatican I and the papal infallibility (which came very close to cause a new major schism in Catholicism).

If he had decided to leave Rome, it'd have been a very good thing for Italy (even if some subsequent pope had managed come back). Unfortunately there was no suitable place for him to go into exile (Germany and A-H refused him, France was a republic and with a lot of bigger problems than the fate of old Pius, the British would never have taken him, Spain was also living troubled times) unless he could be sent to South America (maybe to Brazil: far away from the eyes, farther away from the heart ).

If he had been assassinated, it would have likely been at the hands of some disgruntled priest (after the liberation of Rome he never left the Vatican palace). The Italian government had been always quite conciliatory toward the papacy and its role in Italy and never considered the option of getting rid of this sad man (in 1907 the Italian government even retracted its opposition to the beatification of Pius IX ).

 

[Maeglin]

I've read somewhere that Andorra was the intended site of a relocated papacy: it's at arms length from France, and with one of the co-princes being the Bishop of Urgel, the Pope can always command the support of his underling.

 

[LordKalvan]

I don't know if arguing about Pope Pius's morality is really helpful in answering the OP's question.

The reply to the OP is there. Some additional background does not hurt, in particular in a thread which is somehow weak on historical facts and strong on Wiki

 

[Yuelang]

Don't exagerate, nobody in italian politics is so stupid to force the church to leave Rome, it will be backlash surely but Pio IX stance already give birth to a strong anti-clericalism in Italy and probably nobody will miss him.
The more probable thing is that the King and goverment send their condolence, some political excuse, maybe some cosmetic concession and approach the successor to normalize the situation and anyone that's not that sad spitefull man of Pope Pio IX will be better

regarding A-H and France, the first is still licking is wound from the Austro-Prussian war and France is still entangled in the Franco-Prussian war...so they have other things to do.

but the OP scenario said that.

Do not underestimate the martyrdom culture, while he alive, he might be seen as a corrupt puppet, but martyr him and you'll cause many to whitewash him into a saint, a martyr who uncompromising his principles about the reign of God on earth, and Italian Nationalists will be seen as anti-christs...

now, now... this ATL March on Rome would be interesting... Resurgent Papal State!

 

[lukedalton]

but the OP scenario said that.

Do not underestimate the martyrdom culture, while he alive, he might be seen as a corrupt puppet, but martyr him and you'll cause many to whitewash him into a saint, a martyr who uncompromising his principles about the reign of God on earth, and Italian Nationalists will be seen as anti-christs...

now, now... this ATL March on Rome would be interesting... Resurgent Papal State!

No, the OP said what happen if an italian nationalist kill the Pope, not if the italian goverment suddenly start a diet of only lead laced food and decide to to do a very stupid thing.
Never said that there were not repercussion but in all honesty, it will not be the end of the world and probably Italy will be forced to be on the diplomatic doghouse a little more; but except for some die hard catholic here not many will miss him (even if in pubblic will say other things), the man was not very loved and even if it will become a 'Martyr' for some, from here to say that a legion of enraged catholics will descend on Rome with vengeance in mind it's far fetched.
Most probable event will be some riot, tension, harsh word from the catholic enstablishment, the italian goverment giving his official regret and try to patch thing up (as he tried for more than four decades)...and live will goes on, after all 'morto un papa, se ne fà un'altro'...when a pope die, we just make another.