WI: The Long Low Steam Age

This is about the Aeolipile. Now, before you jump all over me, I am aware that there is little to no chance of Hero's invention kick-starting an industrial revolution or doing much more than party tricks. What I am instead suggesting is this: the devices are a little bit more popular than OTL, and there are more of them around and many more records of their construction. This results in the idea sticking around in parts of the world during the dark ages and surviving, and simply being around: either played around with by Byzantines or Irish monks or Arab scholars.

Could this have any effects? I've seen references to church organs being operated by steam in the 12th century, maybe this could be more widespread and earlier? Steam-powered roasting jacks in the courts of late medieval kings?

And, if the rudimentary technology is around and being looked at for longer, when do we get to the point in terms of other technologies were it can be turned into something practical?
 
If something like the Black Death occurs roughly on schedule, I'm guessing that's when the proliferation of steam-powered devices would start, since the reduced population and correspondingly high labor costs might make them competitive. On the other hand, waterpower was a widespread and more mature technology. What advantages would steam offer over watermills and such? (Aside from being able to work away from water...)
 
If I understand correctly (which I may not), the Aeolipile generated so little torque that it was basically a proof-of-concept, whether that's what Hero intended. As such, the only way it can advance technology is if it is recognized as a proof-of-concept. I don't know of even one instance of a writer speculating about future technological advancments until very recently, though it's very possible that I missed some, as I didn't really look. If anyone else does, let me know.

What I'm saying is that the idea of an engine, even if there was no actual engine yet could introduce futurism early. Medieval monks, noblemen, and whoever, even if they didn't know how to make a practical engine, whould know what an engine is, in the same way that we know what wireless electricity is even if we don't know how to make it yet. That won't invent anything by itsself, but it might encourage people to try the other peices togiether when they are available.
 
If I understand correctly (which I may not), the Aeolipile generated so little torque that it was basically a proof-of-concept, whether that's what Hero intended.

Yes. In fact, it was more a proof of concept for a rocket than a practical steam engine, as it relied on jet propulsion.

The Newcomen Steam Engine (the granddaddy of them all) was basically a very large pump. James Watt then combined that with a crank (yes, he actually patented the crank) to produce rotational power and therefore the industrial revolution.

IMHO, then, the real need for earlier steam has nothing to do with an Aeolipile, and everything to do with a need to pump mines in late antiquity. A Newcomen engine is technology that the Romans would have understood and could easily have built. The trick, then, is to find a reason why they would develop such a thing.
 

MAlexMatt

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Yes. In fact, it was more a proof of concept for a rocket than a practical steam engine, as it relied on jet propulsion.

The Newcomen Steam Engine (the granddaddy of them all) was basically a very large pump. James Watt then combined that with a crank (yes, he actually patented the crank) to produce rotational power and therefore the industrial revolution.

IMHO, then, the real need for earlier steam has nothing to do with an Aeolipile, and everything to do with a need to pump mines in late antiquity. A Newcomen engine is technology that the Romans would have understood and could easily have built. The trick, then, is to find a reason why they would develop such a thing.

Did the Romans have the materials technology to build boilers that could handle the kind of pressure necessary to get useful work out of a steam engine?
 
Did the Romans have the materials technology to build boilers that could handle the kind of pressure necessary to get useful work out of a steam engine?

The Nerwcomen design doesn't need a lot of pressure. Less than a firefighting pump, and the Romans built those. I suspect the real problem is the price of materials. Early Newcomen engines used up boiler bottoms like toilet paper. The attrition was worse than in salt pans. I doubt the Romans would have been able to make this economical.
 
Well yeah, but then that's mostly because the thermal/pressure cycling in the Newcomen design. The addition of a Watt-style external condenser would allow much more durable (but still relatively low pressure) boilers. Once those become common, you can effectively bootstrap the metallurgy: more uses of engines drives more metallurgy research which allows better engines which allows more uses, and so on.

The real trick is finding that one initial reason to build an engine in antiquity. Britain around 1700 was the ideal situation, as there was increasing demand for coal and tin, but British mines tended to flood. The mines drove the use of engines, as traditional power sources (wind, water, and animals) were not easy to use underground. So, you need a case of flooded mine with a valuable resource (gold? silver?) in, say, late Republican/early Imperial Rome. Where did the Romans have mines?

EDIT: Ah, this is quite informative...
 
So, you need a case of flooded mine with a valuable resource (gold? silver?) in, say, late Republican/early Imperial Rome. Where did the Romans have mines?

EDIT: Ah, this is quite informative...
The Romans had mines all over the place. However, you need more than a flooded mine, you need higher prices of what you are digging out to cover the cost of the steam engine.
 
How about the arabs? They had access to Indian Wootz steel and produced cotton in Egypt and other parts.
 
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How about the arabs? They had access to Indian Wootz steel and produced cotton in Egypt and other parts.

AFAIR they didn't mine coal, and the big problem with most mining in the Abbasid world was dust, not groundwater.

Really, though, the main problem is not the ability to build a steam engine. If you have half an idea what you are doing, you can build a steam engine with bronze age technology. It is getting a culture to the point where an entry-level steam engine is good for anything. Obviously, any culture will love high-pressure triple-expansion engines small enough to drive ships and trains, but to get there takes decades of development, starting with much less impressive things. You need a reason to thinker with these designs.
 
Yes. In fact, it was more a proof of concept for a rocket than a practical steam engine, as it relied on jet propulsion.

The Newcomen Steam Engine (the granddaddy of them all) was basically a very large pump. James Watt then combined that with a crank (yes, he actually patented the crank)

Not the crank, the sun-and-planet-gear, as a substitute for the crank, which patent was held by someone else. (James Pickard, according to Wikipedia.)
 
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