WI: The Latin Empire of Constantinople survives at least till the 16th century

Make it possible for the Latin empire to survive in Constantinople along with the duchy of Athens and kingdom of Thessaloniki. They must survive till the mid 16th century.
 
I'm not sure it's possible for them to last much longer than they did. Between the Epirotes, Nicaeans, and Bulgarians, the Latin Emperors will have their hands full on all fronts.

That's to say nothing about all the angry, 'schismatic' Greeks under their rule, eager to take any opportunity to chuck the Franks out on their collective arses.
 
I'm guessing that the wildcards that will come to play here in deciding whether the Latin Empire should survive or not would be the Seljuqs and perhaps both the Golden Horde and the Il-Khanate. At one point the Byzantines and the Mongols shared a border, so they may have been in position to chuck out the Latin Crusaders.
 
Unless the Muslims go the way of Grenada, i.e. splintering and spend all their energy fighting each other and the various Greek powers grasp the idiot ball firmly then the Latin's are doomed, tiny minorities can manage to take over an existing state, look at Anglo-Saxon England but not when there are multiple external enemies, then the inability to rally the serfs to the defense of the realm is deadly.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Unless the Muslims go the way of Grenada, i.e. splintering and spend all their energy fighting each other and the various Greek powers grasp the idiot ball firmly then the Latin's are doomed, tiny minorities can manage to take over an existing state, look at Anglo-Saxon England but not when there are multiple external enemies, then the inability to rally the serfs to the defense of the realm is deadly.

Anglo-Saxon England is not the best example, given they drove most of the minority to Wales. A better example would be the Norman conquest of England...But I digress.

It is not wrong to say the Latin's are doomed, what with the Nicaeans, the Bulgarians, and even the Orthodox Greek population. The Muslims (which for this situation, the immediate threat is the Seljuk Turks) while is a credible threat, is not an immediate one. The first thing any Latin emperor would have to do is to placate his orthodox subjects, which is a thing that might be really, really hard to do.
 
Anglo-Saxon England is not the best example, given they drove most of the minority to Wales. A better example would be the Norman conquest of England...But I digress.

I meant the Norman takeover of Anglo-Saxon England.

It is not wrong to say the Latin's are doomed, what with the Nicaeans, the Bulgarians, and even the Orthodox Greek population. The Muslims (which for this situation, the immediate threat is the Seljuk Turks) while is a credible threat, is not an immediate one. The first thing any Latin emperor would have to do is to placate his orthodox subjects, which is a thing that might be really, really hard to do.

Actually what if one of the Latin Emperors dropped the Latin thing i.e. decided that Constantinople was worth a Greek Orthodox mass? Assuming he managed to keep his Latin vassals in line and his head on his shoulders could a Orthodox Frankish dynasty survive and maybe even reunite the ERE.
 
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Razgriz 2K9

Banned
I meant the Norman takeover of Anglo-Saxon England.



Actually what if one of the Latin Emperors dropped the Latin thing i.e. decided that Constantinople was worth a Greek Orthodox mass? Assuming he managed to keep his Latin vassals in line and his head on his shoulders could a Orthodox Frankish dynasty survive and maybe even reunite the ERE.

It might be able to placate the Greek subjects, though I doubt any of the Latin Emperors would be willing to convert, nor would any of the Frankish vassals allow a new Orthodox Emperor. I would say toleration would be possible, it has been done before with Henry of Flanders, whom, because of his tolerance and even handed rule, was able to focus and make successes against both the Bulgarians and the Nicaeans, as well as the Epirotes, (the latter two wanted to unite all of the Byzantine lands under their rulers, while the Bulgarians wanted to rule over the lands of the First Bulgarian Empire, which included much of Macedonia and Greece.)

Keep Henry alive, perhaps have him sire heirs, a little bit of luck and you might be able to create a tolerant Latin Empire and a distinct Franco-Greek culture, all the while hope that the successes continue.
 
The beginning of the end was the capture of Peter of Courtney en route to succeed Henry of Flanders. The Latin Empire has a better shot if he reaches Constantinople and has a reign like his predecessor.

Longer term, the fragmented Latin principalities and the equally fragmented minor Greek empires cannot continue in their 1204 form for too long. Somehow Nicea and Constantinople must combine forces and eliminate their most dangerous regional adversaries (eventually nipping the Ottoman Empire in the bud).

Finally, would it be possible to increase the available manpower of the Latin Empire by a migration of most of the Normans from Southern Italy to the Latin Empire if it looked like they had no future under the Hohenstaufens?
 
Finally, would it be possible to increase the available manpower of the Latin Empire by a migration of most of the Normans from Southern Italy to the Latin Empire if it looked like they had no future under the Hohenstaufens?

By the time of the Latin Empire most of the Mezzogiorno Normans were pretty much fully assimilated Italians with Norman ancestry. It had been 5 or 6 generations and unlike in England the Norman takeover was never so secure that they could establish an Apartheid like division. They had to cooperate with the locals and that plus time meant by 1200 there was no real cultural distinction between Sicilian nobles of Lombard, Greek or Norman ancestry.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
The beginning of the end was the capture of Peter of Courtney en route to succeed Henry of Flanders. The Latin Empire has a better shot if he reaches Constantinople and has a reign like his predecessor.

Longer term, the fragmented Latin principalities and the equally fragmented minor Greek empires cannot continue in their 1204 form for too long. Somehow Nicea and Constantinople must combine forces and eliminate their most dangerous regional adversaries (eventually nipping the Ottoman Empire in the bud).

Finally, would it be possible to increase the available manpower of the Latin Empire by a migration of most of the Normans from Southern Italy to the Latin Empire if it looked like they had no future under the Hohenstaufens?

You are indeed correct (though as I have stated a while back, a PoD that early could theoretically nip the Ottomans in the bud before they even become a state, but I digress.)

As for manpower, I do not know for sure what relations were between the Normans in Sicily to the Franks in the Latin Empire, or their relations with the Hohenstaufens.

Another idea that could help in prolonging the Latin Empire is to not dismantle the Greek bureaucracy set place by the Byzantines. It literally weakened the Frankokratic state, and probably would've hastened its fall to an extent.
 
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