WI: The Ladders (The Beatles Part II)

After the Beatles broke up, there was talk of a group called the Ladders, consisting of John Lennon, Klaus Voorman on bass, George Harrison, Ringo Starr, and possibly Billy Preston on the keyboard. Though the initial news story was big and Ringo said it was to happen*, it never really materialized. I also remember reading that George Harrison approached Lennon after the breakup about the prospect of joining that group, and he said he was just going solo and George should as well. Nothing came of the group, and the closest thing to it was the track from the song "I'm the Greatest" on the album "Ringo", which featured all the members of the proposed Ladders. I've also heard that Brian Jones was considered by Lennon for a post-Beatles group, but don't quote me on that.

What if the Ladders had actually formed after the Beatles breakup?

*To quote Melody Maker, "I'll be in a group with John and George and Klaus and call it the Ladders or whatever you want to call it, but I don't think it would be called The Beatles."
 
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The big problem here is John Lennon. By all accounts he had a great aversion to working in a group after the Beatles and with the exception of a brief window in 1974 was hostile to anything that suggested a Beatles reunion. So the question is whether or not that aversion could be overcome and if so how that might be accomplished. One way might be to have the breakup occur slightly earlier than it did historically as at least according to interviews he did not solidify his "I'll never be in a group again" mentality until September of 1969. If you break them up during the Get Back sessions for example he may be more willing to be in a group but there is no guarantee of that.

My reading of Lennon might be really off here but I think he'd be more open to an album than a group. Meaning he might if circumstances are right do an album with Harrison and Starkey but he did not want to be in the same situation he had been in prior to the split. Therefore any group effort has to be sold to him in that fashion.

This is challenging. It isn't impossible though given the three did work together independently and did record a song together. But it is difficult.

This isn't even getting into the whole Yoko Ono and George Harrison tension and Lennon's lack of respect for the "kid who tagged along"

As far as I am aware "the Ladders" was an urban legend in 1971. But Harrison did approach Lennon about being in a group together in 1973. Lennon balked at the idea. But he did cool down on the reunion idea as the Long Weekend progressed by some accounts. If you could somehow speed that process up by a year or so then he might be more open to it then. Not sure how to do that though and it gets into the whole legal problem Lennon had at the time.
 
They would have been big! But then tensions would have increased thanks to Paul McCartney's Wings.

I don't know if it would have. Any Beatles fan knows of the war in music of that era. I believe that has a strong prospect of existing in this scenario as well. I don't think that will be worse than the OTL, even if you have 3 Beatles in a group vs Paul in his own group or solo career, because they won't all be on the same message; they'll each have their individual critics and problems.
I do think potential exists for tension within the Ladders, where there were criticisms and problems between John, George and Ringo. I don't think those tensions would be put into musical form since they are working together, and they may be alleviated with a lack of Paul McCartney, allowing for George Harrison to take more prominence and for less bickering with Ringo as the child of a dying marriage as he became in the events leading to the Beatles break up. John, George and Ringo seemed to work very well in their solo careers of the OTL, and they collaborated and played together thereafter, so that is a benchmark. The greatest problems between Lennon and George and Ringo seems to have been when they thought John was going to far in attacking (or counterattacking) Paul. That could insert tension into the group.
 
The big problem here is John Lennon. By all accounts he had a great aversion to working in a group after the Beatles and with the exception of a brief window in 1974 was hostile to anything that suggested a Beatles reunion. So the question is whether or not that aversion could be overcome and if so how that might be accomplished. One way might be to have the breakup occur slightly earlier than it did historically as at least according to interviews he did not solidify his "I'll never be in a group again" mentality until September of 1969. If you break them up during the Get Back sessions for example he may be more willing to be in a group but there is no guarantee of that.

My reading of Lennon might be really off here but I think he'd be more open to an album than a group. Meaning he might if circumstances are right do an album with Harrison and Starkey but he did not want to be in the same situation he had been in prior to the split. Therefore any group effort has to be sold to him in that fashion.

This is challenging. It isn't impossible though given the three did work together independently and did record a song together. But it is difficult.

This isn't even getting into the whole Yoko Ono and George Harrison tension and Lennon's lack of respect for the "kid who tagged along"

As far as I am aware "the Ladders" was an urban legend in 1971. But Harrison did approach Lennon about being in a group together in 1973. Lennon balked at the idea. But he did cool down on the reunion idea as the Long Weekend progressed by some accounts. If you could somehow speed that process up by a year or so then he might be more open to it then. Not sure how to do that though and it gets into the whole legal problem Lennon had at the time.

I've come to view Lennon's view on his career and his future (from any given point in time) of his career as a bit schizophrenic and doublethinking. Sometimes it comes across like he did not want to be in the group anymore, and many statements flat out say as much. In other cases, it seems like he was fine enough continuing to be a Beatle. And there are the statements that he wanted to leave but didn't know what to do after leaving and was afraid to so he stayed.
I really think Lennon could have gone any number of different routes, and I increasingly become less and less assured of things as destined or likely to happen, and less and less assured that the Beatles were going to breakup. Lennon had said that it could have gone on and may have been fun, or that it could have gotten worse, but who knows. He also said he could change his mood from day to day and be quoted as saying something he didn't think later and was surprised he had said. I think the Lennon/Beatle issue and the view Lennon took of it is a lot more dynamic and less set in stone as a destined end.

Of course, this isn't even about the Beatles. It's about a group after the Beatles. I do think Lennon could have been in a group and still have been content, so long as it was something different and something he had more influence on to do the kinds of things he wanted to. I think McCartney not being the group would have gone a long way towards that. As it was, the OTL was a bit of an unofficial version of that at times, as John, George and Ringo did frequently work together (at least in the early post-Beatles period).
And I don't believe the Ladders to have been an urban legend, unless that Ringo quote is made up. There were discussions outside the Ladders name that go under its umbrella; discussions at different times about forming a group after the Beatles. That's where my mention of Harrison comes from, which did not mention the Ladders, but talked about how Harrison and Lennon had talked about a group after the Beatles, and how when Harrison talked to Lennon after the Beatles did break up, Lennon just said he was going solo and George should go solo too. It may not be named "The Ladders", but there does seem a strong argument for the prospect of a post-Beatles group made up of John Lennon, George Harrison and Ringo Starr, without Paul McCartney.
 
There were other tensions between Lennon and Harrison. Harrison arguably had the worst relationship with Yoko Ono out of any of the Beatles so there would be tension there particularly as Lennon would want her to be included as a member of the group whether officially or unofficially if we are starting in 1970. There also would have been religious tensions if Lennon still goes to Janov. During this time Lennon was loudly proclaiming himself an atheist and denouncing religion while Harrison was singing "My Sweet Lord."

Lennon's hesitation seems to be a fear of a permanent arrangement. Therefore if "The Ladders" allows Lennon and everyone else to have a solo career on the side he might be okay with it. The Beatles experience was claustrophobic for Lennon and he wanted to avoid that and least from what I've read. He did turn down an opportunity to do exactly this in 1973.
 
There would be at least 2 years before the Ladders is formed for John, Ringo and George to have a solo career.

I'll prepare a possible discography for the group. It'll be interesting.
 
Harrison arguably had the worst relationship with Yoko Ono out of any of the Beatles so there would be tension there particularly as Lennon would want her to be included as a member of the group whether officially or unofficially if we are starting in 1970.

Harrison was the only other Beatle to work on Revolution 9 (which I know is primarily John, but Yoko is also heavily involved). Why, if this was the case?
 
Harrison was the only other Beatle to work on Revolution 9 (which I know is primarily John, but Yoko is also heavily involved). Why, if this was the case?

Like with anything else, this is a complicated issue. Harrison and Lennon were close in terms of band politics in 68. At the same time Harrison told Lennon that Ono gave off "bad vibes" and the two actually got in a fist fight over it in 1969. Harrison was a lot blunter about his disdain for Ono than McCartney ever was. It is complicated and it would not hold Lennon away from one off projects since it did not historically. But in a long lasting situation it would be a problem.
 
There would be at least 2 years before the Ladders is formed for John, Ringo and George to have a solo career.

I'll prepare a possible discography for the group. It'll be interesting.

1973 is probably the best bet considering Harrison actually asked Lennon to join a group at that point. Problem is Lennon balked. Therefore the question is how you alter that reaction.
 
Well, Lennon went on his lost weekend in 1973-1974. Half-way through, he gets bored and forms the Ladders.

Or conversely, you could just have Harrison make the offer differently. Let's make an album vs. let's start a new band. If it is sold as a one off project, Lennon just might sign onm
 
I realize that this may be out of the scope of this thread, I think a Harrison-Starkey-Preston group might well be possible in 1970, given the fact that both Preston and Starkey had a very close creative relationship during the time period. I know that does not cpubt because Lennon would not have been a member but it is an interesting possibility. Somewhat awkwardly Eric Clapton might have ended up briefly being in such a group. The same team worked on POB but that album's atheistic sentiments cannot really br reconciled with All Things Must Pass, to the point where Harrison was still deeply uncomfortable with Lennon's debut in 1979.
 
At least theoretically, you could have Lennon join by 1973 or 1974, if absolutely everything goes right. After all, he worked with all the members of the imagionary band on his first solo albums, and he would certainly have been willing to contribute songs for Richard Starkey to sing. This means that for all his repeated "I will never ever ever ever ever ever ever be in a band again, Lennon is likely to be in the periphery of the group from the beginning. If you somehow improve on the Lennon-Harrison relationship, perhaps that initial close relationship can continue. Perhaps with a preexisting band, Harrison can convince Lennon to stay for a full album when he offers I am the Greatest or its equivalent to Ringo in 1973. From there you have a 1973 and two 1974 releases with Lennon involved. One of those 1974 albums being the legally mandated cover collection Lennon had to do.
That might be wildly optimistic, and more reasonably, Lennon might appear once ob a Ladders album. But I can just possibly see the above scenario happening if everything goes right for it.
 
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