WI: The Knights Templar survived?

[CenturionMagnus]

Now this isn't in the whole "Templars went underground and survive to this very day" conspiracy sort of thing. What I mean is, what would happen if Pope Clement V ignored King Philip IV of France and chose NOT to suppress, arrest, exterminate and disband the Order of the Temple aka the Knights Templar from 1307 to 1312?

How would the Knights Templar continue after 1307? Would it simply be allowed to continue for another couple of years before something else popped up to convince the Pope to disband them? Would they flourish? Or would they continue into the modern day and have a similar role to what the Knights Hospitaller and the Teutonic Knights have now?

 

[LSCatilina]

Well, they did in a sort of way : the suppression of the Ordrer didn't physically threatened Templars that weren't in the kingdom of France, and most of the fortune (even in France, most of Templars's holdings went to Hospitalers) and people there joined up with Hospitalers, or iberian orders.

Now about the survival of the Order, that's going to be more tricky. Templars were totally discredited popularly for being basically bankers and having gave up to the apparences the protection and reconquest of Holy Land, as well monacal life.

Having the pope not compying before Philippe le Bel is going to be hard as well, considering the success the french king already had on papacy.
It should be pointed, however, that the Order wasn't suppressed then its rulers arrested, but the reverse. Indeed, it seem that Clementius V tried to protect them and the order was dissolved, rather than suppressed, afterwards.

The easy answer would be a delayed fall of Acre and remnant of Crusader States, but it would only delay the fall of Templars (and maybe before this TL Siege of Acre).

What could save Templars, would be both to still have holdings in Eastern Mediterranean (as Hospitalers), to keep far more religious discipline, and to be less successful as an order in western Europe.
Templars problem, again, was once Holy Land out of Christian control, they had no point anymore; while Teutonic or Hospitalers were present "on the front".

Having a less important unifying tendency in France at this point, or at the contrary that Papacy turning even more deeply under french influence would help a lot (as Templars under pontifical alliegence rather than royal would seem less of a threat).

Of course, having pope renouncing on Temple's suzerainty and giving it to the secular rulers would be a good thing for the OP, but I don't think it would be really doable.

Eventually though, Hospitalers and Templars are going to be quite redundant, and one is going to absorb the other. Giving the more maritime-minded nature of Hospitalers, and their easier adaptation to the loss of Palestine, I'll still bet on them.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Several of the kings outside France were reluctant to follow suit.
What would it take for one or several of them to outright refuse Clement´s request to dissolve the Order as being under pressure of Philip?

Which kings were at loggerheads with Philip as of 1307?

 

[LSCatilina]

What would it take for one or several of them to outright refuse Clement´s request to dissolve the Order as being under pressure of Philip?

It would take a lot, Philippe and royal administration actually well chosen their time : Anglo-Flemish alliance was defeated hashly, Papacy was humiliated, HRE still within Great Interregnum and all the troubles, Castille with a troubled regency, etc.
Some were in better shape on this regard, as Aragon.

They would likely have pulled an expedition if their interests were threatened or if they had some important casus belli, but only for Templars?

Furthermore, the secular rulers have nothing to do with the Temple technically, the whole order is on the direct vassality of the pope. What kings could do (and what they did) was to take the former Templars and use at their own benefit (as in the iberian knight orders).
(It's was actually maybe what Philippe wanted at first, as he tried to get the upper hand on french Templars and Hospitalers)

It doesn't help that, while under pressure, Papacy was still an important institution enough to not be lightly disputed.

While they were reluctant at first, the pontifical decision prooved to be enough of a free pass to allow some (as the king of Aragon) to pull a Philippe le Bel themselves.
Basically, everywhere Templars were an important institution (France, Aragon, Cyprus), you had an important backleash.

It wasn't the first time a pope fall under secular pressure after all (HREmperors were quite fond of that), and it wouldn't look like a radical change.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Some were in better shape on this regard, as Aragon.

They would likely have pulled an expedition if their interests were threatened or if they had some important casus belli, but only for Templars?

They would not need to undertake expedition. Just leave the Templars in their lands unmolested and openly operating, and receive the fugitives from France and elsewhere. It would be France or Pope who would need to launch an expedition.

 

[LSCatilina]

They would not need to undertake expedition. Just leave the Templars in their lands unmolested and openly operating, and receive the fugitives from France and elsewhere. It would be France or Pope who would need to launch an expedition.

I don't really see why these rulers would do that : again, dissolving a rather independent wealthy order wasn't about them to really organize, unless they actively go against pontifical and ecclesiastical matters.
It would be seen not only as an intervention into pure papacy matters (Templars being its direct vassals), and while quite ironic when you see how Philippe intervened violently himself, it would be grounds for outright excommunication (something that always turn bad on a Christian ruler resume).

It was more on their benefit to obey the pontifical decision, that was about giving fortune and goods to Hospitalers and other Knights order that they would have a far easier time to manage or at least hold. Politically, it wouldn't make much sense to hold on a Templar order that get dissolved (but not condamned) by Clementius.

King of Aragon especially was more of the most enthusiast about it, for this same reasons.

I would think that, after the loss of Acre, Templar doomfall was unavoidable (or safe a really quick radical transformation of the order) and that by the times Capetians acted, nobody was really ready to make the order survive (as distinguished from helping refugees and to help the reogranisation of former Templars into other knights order they could more easily have a grasp on, as Order of Montesa that is basically a local Knight Templar chapter in everything safe name).