WI the kingdom of Knut the great had not fallen apart?

I agree, but that also prevents me from making helpful comments as its beyond my imagination... :eek:

Nonsense. Have better faith in your imagination, your guess is as good as any.

And thanks to both of you Swede and Oddball, I was starting to wonder what readers were thinking about this developement.
 
nemas problemas :)

a couple of ideas: the Swedish Knights attracting hardline catholics from all over Europe and keeping on persecuting everyone else within their borders. but the people not liking this and rebellions every so often, over time reducing the population (or at least keeping it from growing).
why? why not!
I want a TL were Sweden stays a seperate nation but is well and truely f*cked. Tends to be we're part of Kalmar, a minor power or nice and neutral a lá OTL.

also, an Empire of Europe that lasts a few generations before crumbling would be fun. makeing sure it has a legacy in the minds of people and in the age of nationalism.
 
Fantastic timeline overall. I think the ease of the Mongols in taking Europe is perhaps a little overstated, though. I mean it took - what? - 20 years for them to overrun the southern half of China. Would Europe really be that much easier?
 
China's armies were rather stronger than European ones (they had how many, one or two million soldiers, while Europeans had, I don't know, ten thousands *at best*?). European terrain is difficult, but so is China's. (And it differs too - Hungary and Vlachia were very suited for the Mongols, and Northern Germany and France and N Italy wouldn't be too bad for them either.) And besides, the Europeans were terrified of the Mongols even before they came, believing they were devils, or Gog and Magog. And the Chinese at least knew that gunpowder did exist, which the Europeans didn't know yet.
 
Fantastic timeline overall. I think the ease of the Mongols in taking Europe is perhaps a little overstated, though. I mean it took - what? - 20 years for them to overrun the southern half of China. Would Europe really be that much easier?

Well, according to my sources Poland had one of the strongest if not the strongest army in Europe at this time.

It took the Mongols two days to finish it off.

I might be exaggerating, some have argued that in Germany the terrain wouldn´t be as suitable as in Poland and the weather wouldn´t be good for their bows. That didn´t stop them in Russia though.

Plus the psychological factor as Max pointed out. The Europeans were scared shitless.
 
Jamuka´s empire

Historians are not all in agreement on how organised and excactly how centralised Jamuka´s empire was. On paper it reached from the Caspian sea, across the Crimean south to Hungary, north to Novogorod and with France and Denmark along with the various citystates of Germany and Poland pledging allegiance.

One can see why Jamuka needed an effective postal service. (It is said that over 5000 turkic horseriders were devoted completely to carrying messages across the empire.)

Jamuka was the son of Anne of Novogorod, and was therefore half European. In fact he could claim ancestry to both king Knut the Rich and Harold Godwynsson founder of the Godwynsson dynasty. Jamuka was raised much like any other son of a Mongol khan, he is said to have been an excellent fighter and a good general, but his interests were elsewhere. Not only did he put an effort in to learning Polish and German the main languages of his empire, but he was very interested in learning to read. He was fifteen when he started taking classes and although he never became very literate he supported scholars fervently.

Jamuka governed through fear just as his father Kublai and he didn´t have government officials in all major cities. He merely had taxcollectors visiting and taking, and he didn´t try to change customs or laws. His Ordumen became the upperclass of the empire of course. In a court case a member of the Ordu counted as two witnesses, while normal europeans merely counted as one. They weren´t a noticable part of the empire except for in the land of Rus and in Poland, where Jamuka offered them land to govern and allowed them to collect taxes for themselves.

To think though that Jamuka was only emperor in name would be an understatement. Jamuka held large conventions in Vienna and Crackow where people could come from all over the empire and plead with him. Often people came with reports of harassements and sometimes Jamuka became the judge in land feuds. In ruins close to Crackow documents have been found that show that Jamuka sent soldiers to protect peasants from robbers and other tyrranisers and that he settled many disputes. In one case he f.x. redivided lands between two chieftains in Lithuania to stop infighting there.

Another testaments to the emperors power are the buildings he left. The palaces and forts he raised all over Poland prove that the taxmoney were used for more than courtpleasures and bribery to the soldiers. But they were not only used to build castles, Jamuka built roads across his empire, bridges and even canals. In many places there have been raised stones and on them written in Latin, Jamukas imperial orders. On one stone not far from the Rhine for exemple it says:

This bridge was built by the command of Jamuka, emperor of Europe.

Certainly Jamuka was respected, feared but also adored and loved. He was regarded by his subjects as a good and benevolent king, for on many occasions he was generous and people prospered from the peace and stability his reign brought.

Trade with asia blossomed and the invention of paper and powder reached Europe by the end of his days. Silkworms were brought to the court of Crackow as a gift from Jamuka´s cousin, emperor Batu in China. Many spices and artobjects made it across the central asian steppes to Europe, and even ideas. Jamuka brought chinese philosophers and artists to his court in Crackow, and due to Jamuka´s will the teaching of Confusius were translated into latin.

Some scholars argue that thanks to the crusades and the kingdom of heaven Europe was already on it´s way to rediscover the philosophical writings of the Romans and greeks. But most are in agreement that without the library in Crackow buying of works from the Byzantine empire, Arabia and Rome the renaissance that occured a century later might not have happened.

Who knows, without the Mongol invasion, would Europe ever have prospered and industrialised?
 
:(
Map, please?

I wish... I can´t post pictures on this site for some reason. Let me demonstrate:



If anyone could possibly point out a solution I´m all ears.
 
:(

I wish... I can´t post pictures on this site for some reason. Let me demonstrate:



If anyone could possibly point out a solution I´m all ears.

You just can't link to images on your computer- you have to upload them to the Internet. The board has a built-in upload feature, if that doesn't work you'll have to go to another site like Imageshack.
 
It's a great TL...

With the Anglo-Danish Kingdom - is it still stable under one rule or is there a king that is based in "England" rather than Denmark due to the Mongol threat?
 
It's a great TL...

With the Anglo-Danish Kingdom - is it still stable under one rule or is there a king that is based in "England" rather than Denmark due to the Mongol threat?

Thanks, G.Bone. I´m very glad to hear you like it.

The king is based in York, and they´re less united than they were back in 1250 when they broke apart. It is relatively stable for now.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Well, according to my sources Poland had one of the strongest if not the strongest army in Europe at this time.

It took the Mongols two days to finish it off.

I might be exaggerating, some have argued that in Germany the terrain wouldn´t be as suitable as in Poland and the weather wouldn´t be good for their bows. That didn´t stop them in Russia though.

Plus the psychological factor as Max pointed out. The Europeans were scared shitless.

In OTL the Mongols never came to Scandinavia, why should they in this TL?

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
In OTL the Mongols never came to Scandinavia, why should they in this TL?

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

There are no Mongols in Scandinavia. They´ve no interest what so ever in TTL in Sweden and Norway. The cost of sending an army up north wouldn´t really pay off I think.
 
But if they make it to Northern Germany, they could also take Jutland and maybe some Danish isles too.
 
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Redbeard

Banned
But if they make it to Northern Germany, they could also take jutland and maybe some Danish isles too.

Jutland maybe, but the isles would require the belts freezing over. Outside "little iceages" like in mid 17th century and 1940's I believe the belts freezing over is extremely rare. But of course it would be funny to imagine Djengis Khan ahead of his proud army - on cracking ice... :D

Even the Little Belt has a heavy current making a conventional medieval age river crossing impossible, not to mention what a handful of warships could do.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Jutland maybe, but the isles would require the belts freezing over. Outside "little iceages" like in mid 17th century and 1940's I believe the belts freezing over is extremely rare. But of course it would be funny to imagine Djengis Khan ahead of his proud army - on cracking ice... :D

Even the Little Belt has a heavy current making a conventional medieval age river crossing impossible, not to mention what a handful of warships could do.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Steffen

I think you will find the Mongols reached Zealand. Their 1st armada against England stopped off there before rounding Jutland and being defeated by the English fleet.

Steve
 
Well yes, the current king of Denmark Valdemar II of that time just wasn´t going to fight a desperate last stand against the mongols, which at best would have ended up with the loss of Jutland, the worst case scenario his death. So Zealand belonged to the Mongol empire, at least in name, for the king of Denmark pledged allegiance to him and paid taxes to the emperor.

Remember that in OTL the Europeans were on the verge of surrendering.
 
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