WI: The Jurchen/Jin conquered all of Song China?

Yet another historical area which I know little to nothing about, but I thought I'd bring it up. What if, during the 12th century, the Jurchen/Jin managed to conquer all of China from the Song dynasty, instead of just the north? What effects would this have on China? I'm guessing "the" Mongol conquest would be butterflied, but not "a" possible Mongol conquest.

Any thoughts?
 
I'm curious as to what would change in regards to the history of China.
Would the Jurchens institute an "apartheid" policy over the Han, like the later Manchus did? My guess would be no, considering that Song China was not in decline by the middle of the Jin-Song Wars.
 
Yet another historical area which I know little to nothing about, but I thought I'd bring it up. What if, during the 12th century, the Jurchen/Jin managed to conquer all of China from the Song dynasty, instead of just the north? What effects would this have on China? I'm guessing "the" Mongol conquest would be butterflied, but not "a" possible Mongol conquest.

Any thoughts?

IMO, the Mongolian conquest of all China would happen faster, taking into an account that during the OTL conquest of the Northern China the native troops and administration had been switching to their side in big numbers. The same patter would be extended to the South as well.
 
The mongols coming as liberators as opposed to barbarian conquerors would earn them alot of goodwill,
maybe enough to change the situation of yuan.
 

Kaze

Banned
The best way to have the Jin to have all of China
1. March south after the Jingkang Incident. This would ensure that the establishment of a Southern Song would be smothered in infancy.
2. Victory in the Jin-Song Wars before the appearance of the Mongols. This would take the Manchu defection system, but doable if you keep the Mongols from getting ambitious - not many nations in this world can successfully win a two-front war.
3. A successful alliance with Western Xia.
Emperor Renzong of the Western Xia made overtures to the Jin.

[In 1170, Renzong discovered a plot to kill him. He executed the generals who were behind the plot. As a result, Renzong distrusted his army generals and the army began to fall into incompetence. During his later years, Western Xia began to fight wars against various enemies leading to the eventual defeat of the Western Xia.] Ha there been no assassination attempt, the Xia would be better prepared to fight the Mongols.

Genghis Khan and other Mongols often led attacks on he Western Xia under Renzong's heirs. An alliance between the Xia and the Jin could in theory stop / delay the expansion of Mongolian influence. Or... a lucky archer could kill Genghis in one of his attacks on the Western Xia - with Genghis dead, the Mongols would be too busy fighting among themselves to be able to be able to conquer anything.

With the Mongols nerfed with the Western Xia alliance, the Jin could focus south.
 
The best way to have the Jin to have all of China
1. March south after the Jingkang Incident. This would ensure that the establishment of a Southern Song would be smothered in infancy.
2. Victory in the Jin-Song Wars before the appearance of the Mongols. This would take the Manchu defection system, but doable if you keep the Mongols from getting ambitious - not many nations in this world can successfully win a two-front war.
3. A successful alliance with Western Xia.
Emperor Renzong of the Western Xia made overtures to the Jin.

[In 1170, Renzong discovered a plot to kill him. He executed the generals who were behind the plot. As a result, Renzong distrusted his army generals and the army began to fall into incompetence. During his later years, Western Xia began to fight wars against various enemies leading to the eventual defeat of the Western Xia.] Ha there been no assassination attempt, the Xia would be better prepared to fight the Mongols.

Genghis Khan and other Mongols often led attacks on he Western Xia under Renzong's heirs. An alliance between the Xia and the Jin could in theory stop / delay the expansion of Mongolian influence. Or... a lucky archer could kill Genghis in one of his attacks on the Western Xia - with Genghis dead, the Mongols would be too busy fighting among themselves to be able to be able to conquer anything.

With the Mongols nerfed with the Western Xia alliance, the Jin could focus south.
I don’t think the Jurchens could have directly walked over the south as you said. Jiangkang Incident was basically an accident even for the Jurchens,given the incompetence of the two Song emperors,and they had trouble dealing with massive revolts in Hebei alone. There were also various Song armies to the south.

Two potential POD that could change the outcome would be the Jurchens detaining OTL Gaozong while he was serving as an emissary to Jurchens.This means that once Kaifeng falls,the Song Dynasty would have no figure to rally around,given every Imperial family member of note would have been captured.Song resistance would have splintered just like Southern Ming was.

The other POD would have been for the Jurchens to make better use of the two emperors they captured. Instead of humiliating the two for their own amusement,they should have either set up a puppet regime in Kaifeng using the two as its’ head or actually releasing the two to Southern Song in order to provoke a possible civil war.
 
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Kaze

Banned
I do agree with you by the time of Jingkang the Jurchens had overextended themselves. It is why the former Song official Liu Yu is enthroned as the emperor of the Jurchen puppet state of Qi. It is also why they created the Treaty of Shaoxing.
I do agree with you that having the Jurchens capture both emperors or have said emperors fight a civil war to kill the Southern Song.
I was just summarizing that killing the Southern Song in its infancy would be a way to do take the whole of China.
 
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