WI: The Japanese attack the German embassy during the Rape of Nanking

During the Rape of Nanking, the German embassy sheltered some 200,000 Chinese from the Japanese. What if some overzealous Japanese troops get wind of this and attack the embassy? How do the Japanese and German government react? How is WWII affected?
 
During the Rape of Nanking, the German embassy sheltered some 200,000 Chinese from the Japanese. What if some overzealous Japanese troops get wind of this and attack the embassy? How do the Japanese and German government react? How is WWII affected?

In no way. Japanese government pulls Panay on Germany, apologize and pay reparations... They go on as before.
 
During the Rape of Nanking, the German embassy sheltered some 200,000 Chinese from the Japanese. What if some overzealous Japanese troops get wind of this and attack the embassy? How do the Japanese and German government react? How is WWII affected?
How bad is it? Were there only men there? If there were women... were they raped? Or are they only killing Chinese people.
 

Yuelang

Banned
Uh, result in Allied Imperial Japan vs Axis China in Pacific Front?

With domino effect of US intervene against Japan on behalf of China?

Who end up damaging British ships...

And result in Western Allies declare war on US...

Axis USA? :D
 
In no way. Japanese government pulls Panay on Germany, apologize and pay reparations... They go on as before.


The Japanese probably would have to pull off another Panay, but I think this would have had adverse effects to the German Japanese relationship. Perhaps we do not see the Japanese in the Axis.
 
How bad is it? Were there only men there? If there were women... were they raped? Or are they only killing Chinese people.

This stipulates that the Japanese basically kill everyone in their way, including Germans. The important thing isn't really how Japan reacts to this, its how Hitler reacts to this; the Nazis still had a pretty low view of the Japanese.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Uh, result in Allied Imperial Japan vs Axis China in Pacific Front?

With domino effect of US intervene against Japan on behalf of China?

Who end up damaging British ships...

And result in Western Allies declare war on US...

Axis USA? :D
The world is not a game of Hearts of Iron, alliances do not work like that.
 
My idea was that it would invite Hitler to support Chaing fully, possibly butterflying away the US oil embargo.
 

Yuelang

Banned
The world is not a game of Hearts of Iron, alliances do not work like that.

unlikely I know, but it was the funniest outcome...

unwilling axis USA who hatch a hare brained plot to quickly get rid of Hitler and succeeded without get anyone suspicious.

1945, Militarist Germany, Fascist Italy, Fascist China, and USA (who insist that they ain't fascist) do a conference to plan the after war world order...
 
The Panay was a military vessel that was unlucky enough to be targeted by the Japanese. The German presence was civilian and diplomatic. For the Japanese to attack it and kill everyone there, even "on accident," would be to flush any good relation with the Reich down the toilet.
 
The Panay was a military vessel that was unlucky enough to be targeted by the Japanese. The German presence was civilian and diplomatic. For the Japanese to attack it and kill everyone there, even "on accident," would be to flush any good relation with the Reich down the toilet.

Given that Hitler spoke about "Vile Asiatics and their barbaric methods of warfare" when referring to the Russians his alliance with Japan always seemed odd to me. Having the Japanese massacre German diplomats and people they were protecting would have him ranting for hours.

So: 1) Japan is now "the evil yellow horde."
2) China - the nationalists anyway - have a new supporter, expect weapons, advisers etc with Made In Germany on them.
3) The war in the Pacific has not necessarily been removed. It has changed however. If Japan attacks the west - IF becomes a bigger question here - Hitler will not automatically declare war on the USA as a result. Will the US even be in the European war, with Germany clearly hostile to the power that did this timelines Pearl Harbour equivalent?
 
During the Rape of Nanking, the German embassy sheltered some 200,000 Chinese from the Japanese. What if some overzealous Japanese troops get wind of this and attack the embassy? How do the Japanese and German government react? How is WWII affected?

The Panay was a similar incident but Adolf Hitler is not FDR. I really do not think he'd let this slide, and I could see Germany supporting the Nationalists further (as they did in OTL).

This could potentially go very heavily in Germany's favor from OTL. Obviously Pearl Harbor would not trigger Germany's DoW against the United States, but in backing China, Germany actually has someone that's not either out to rip the world apart in their corner. Ultimately, Germany is still going to start WWII and I don't think positive press from China can change much.

The part where this begins to suck is around 1940. France is defeated, Japan is clearly focused on taking out China, but CHINA ISN'T FRIENDLY with the Allies. The Japanese aim of defeating China remains, but the UK at a minimum, doesn't want a Pro-Axis Chiang to win.

We could have a really dystopic scenario where the UK and USA basically greenlight Japan's rampage against China or even some assistance in building a "new order". Presumably no embargo against Japan, possibly some support if Japan decides to create some additional puppet states, like a Wang Jingwei lead "Republic of China", Inner Mongolia, and North China. Ultimately, Japan will have to declare victory with some kind of puppet regime in place and consolidate its gains.

For its part, later US War Entry, an ally that will tax their enemies, and a few good PR moments definitely helps Germany. The scenario doesn't go far enough to explore the most critical opportunity--a weak Anglo-American Relationship--to keep the US out of the war entirely, and I'm pretty sure that Germany will eventually sink too many US Ships with undeclared submarine warfare to get a US DoW in 1943 or so.

This is the sort of scenario that sees a 1946-7 VE Day, and many other bad things that almost happened IOTL happen, like Leningrad falling to the Germans. This probably ends in an Atomic Offensive combined with economic superiority.
 
Uh, result in Allied Imperial Japan vs Axis China in Pacific Front?

With domino effect of US intervene against Japan on behalf of China?

Who end up damaging British ships...

And result in Western Allies declare war on US...

Axis USA? :D

*Head explodes*

Sounds like a Turtledove wet dream.
 
Germany supporting Nationalist China doesn't make China an axis power, it simply means that everyone is pissed off at Japan. There's no reason prewar why China cannot accept aid from Germany while maintaining good relations with the allies, and once the war gets going Chaing would have to be high on opiates to cast his lot with the side that has virtually no ability to support him. The only way German arms in any quantities would get to China would be through India or Southeast Asia, which for obvious reasons would not continue after 1939.

There would be some butterflies though, Japan would probably do slightly worse in China, and come '41 would be less confident about attacking the West without a nominal ally running wild over Europe. Assuming Pearl Harbor goes as OTL, Germany may be less likely to DOW the US, but still has compelling reasons to do so in order to openly sink US shipping to the UK. Even if they don't, the US will enter the war against Germany soon, but may have less enthusiasm for it.
 
Germany supporting Nationalist China doesn't make China an axis power, it simply means that everyone is pissed off at Japan. There's no reason prewar why China cannot accept aid from Germany while maintaining good relations with the allies, and once the war gets going Chiang would have to be high on opiates to cast his lot with the side that has virtually no ability to support him. The only way German arms in any quantities would get to China would be through India or Southeast Asia, which for obvious reasons would not continue after 1939.
Agreed, but just a small thing: German goods can get to China by way of the USSR. China can still receive its purchases from Germany until 1941, though in practice this will probably only last until 1940 at the latest since the Reich will need all the stuff it builds for its own plans.
 
The part where this begins to suck is around 1940. France is defeated, Japan is clearly focused on taking out China, but CHINA ISN'T FRIENDLY with the Allies. The Japanese aim of defeating China remains, but the UK at a minimum, doesn't want a Pro-Axis Chiang to win.

We could have a really dystopic scenario where the UK and USA basically greenlight Japan's rampage against China or even some assistance in building a "new order". Presumably no embargo against Japan, possibly some support if Japan decides to create some additional puppet states, like a Wang Jingwei lead "Republic of China", Inner Mongolia, and North China. Ultimately, Japan will have to declare victory with some kind of puppet regime in place and consolidate its gains.


Except if US tries to greenlight Japan in China, the administration, no matter who the president is and no matter how they may try to spin it, would not survive the next election. Japan in China meant that the US would consider Japan its main adversary, at least in the Asia/Pacific Region. You'd need China attacking US to convince them otherwise.
 
Ultimately, Germany is still going to start WWII and I don't think positive press from China can change much.

France is defeated, Japan is clearly focused on taking out China, but CHINA ISN'T FRIENDLY with the Allies. The Japanese aim of defeating China remains, but the UK at a minimum, doesn't want a Pro-Axis Chiang to win.

We could have a really dystopic scenario where the UK and USA basically greenlight Japan's rampage against China or even some assistance in building a "new order". Presumably no embargo against Japan, possibly some support if Japan decides to create some additional puppet states, like a Wang Jingwei lead "Republic of China", Inner Mongolia, and North China. Ultimately, Japan will have to declare victory with some kind of puppet regime in place and consolidate its gains.

think there would be a very confused situation that could reshuffle WWII.

closest to OTL would be if Japan goes to great lengths to repair relations. not sure how plausible but Germany might gain stronger hand over Wang Jingwei regime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Jingwei#/media/File:Wang_and_Nazis.jpg

(similar to Croatia which was puppet government with two masters)

if situation in Nanking causes irrevocable break, POSSIBLE Japan and USSR strike some type of pact? (while Germany is funneling weapons to China, later using Vichy French Indochina as base?)
 
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