WI: The Hungarian Revolution of 1848 succeeds?

[willyvereb]

Hungarian genealogy is a serious patchwork of people nearly all across Eurasia. Same was with nationalities.
As I said before nationalism was only really a front to push the intents of certain social groups.
1848-49 Hungary or even the late Austria-Hungary was supporting nationalities more than modern "multi-culturialist" nations do to people speaking foreign tongues.
This sometimes makes me wonder what we define as "oppression".
Would the UK allow Polish workers to form their own independent state within their borders? Just a fleeting thought.

 

[kalamona]

Genealogy of all former subjects of Hungarian kingdom is more then interesting. My surname I was told is actually Turkish. Anyway Kosuth uncle Juraj Kosut for example supported Slovak nationalists.

I would be curious to see some statistics as where were parts of Hungarian revolutionary armies getting their soldiers from. Is it possible that majority of Slovaks in revolutionary Armies were from Bekescsaba area, Budapest and other Slovak populated areas in heart of Hungary?

As to local elites (lower nobility) majority was by 1848 inclining to support Hungary.

As to competition between Catholic and Lutheran brunch of Slovak nationalism, it was never ending story probably up to 1938.

Well, for the record, quite a number of turks remained in Hungary, "Török" ("Turk") is quite a common name here.
So you are probably a turkish descendant.

As for statistics... i fear, there are none. However, quite a number of battallions were raised in upper Hungary and at least, at Branyiszkó the majority of the infantry was slovak.
Buda was mostly german if i remember correctly, Pest was not yet the biggest slovak city (but german and jew and hungarian), Békéscsaba area is quite possible provided slovak recruits in numbers.
But answering you question: possible, but highly unlikely.

 

[KACKO]

Well, for the record, quite a number of turks remained in Hungary, "Török" ("Turk") is quite a common name here.
So you are probably a turkish descendant.

Some deserter decided to stay in my grand grand ma house.

As for statistics... i fear, there are none. However, quite a number of battallions were raised in upper Hungary and at least, at Branyiszkó the majority of the infantry was slovak.
Buda was mostly german if i remember correctly, Pest was not yet the biggest slovak city (but german and jew and hungarian), Békéscsaba area is quite possible provided slovak recruits in numbers.
But answering you question: possible, but highly unlikely.

It's more then likely Slovaks from Eastern and south Eastern part sided with Hungary or watched without interest. Slovak national awaking was predominant mostly in western and north western Slovakia at that times and even long after. Even in 1918/19 Slovaks in Eastern part of Slovakia were mostly un decided and watched mostly from sidelines. During Little Was in March 1939 situation was already bit different.

 

[KACKO]

Hungarian genealogy is a serious patchwork of people nearly all across Eurasia. Same was with nationalities.
As I said before nationalism was only really a front to push the intents of certain social groups.
1848-49 Hungary or even the late Austria-Hungary was supporting nationalities more than modern "multi-culturialist" nations do to people speaking foreign tongues.
This sometimes makes me wonder what we define as "oppression".
Would the UK allow Polish workers to form their own independent state within their borders? Just a fleeting thought.

Thing was most of nationalities in Hungarian Kingdom at the time were living on territory for centuries. Even Germans settlers were there already for some 4-500 years while Polish workers in UK are recently arriving. And if staying there they children will speak English.

So with growth of Nationalism nationalities of Kingdom started to press for more rights.

However even most of Slovak Nationalists admits that Hungarization prior to 1848 was basically voluntary. After Ausgleich however situation was different.

Interesting fact however is that while Slovaks were complaining on Hungarization some Germans in Slovakia were complaining about cultural Slovakization of Germans in some areas.

Interesting fact is that after first Slovak expedition there was voting among Slovak nationalists leaders if not to support Kossuth! It ended 5:3 in favor of Vienna!

 

[Halagaz]

Kossuth's Hungary isn't destined to necessarily alienate the minorities - several parts of its program were things non-Hungarians could get behind too, abolition of serfdom and all that. For example the Serb movement supported the Hungarian revolutionaries in the first month of the upheaval, and they nearly reached an agreement in the autumn of 1848 again (due to Vienna's uncompromising attitude and blunders). If the Hungarian government acted with a bit more tact, played to its strengths and compromised on its weaknesses, they could have IMO reached an agreement with the Serbs and Romanians. Possibly Slovaks as well, although that might be harder.

 

[KACKO]

If the Hungarian government acted with a bit more tact, played to its strengths and compromised on its weaknesses, they could have IMO reached an agreement with the Serbs and Romanians. Possibly Slovaks as well, although that might be harder.

Well basically Slovak hardliners voting after September 1848 showed that there was possibility to reach agreement with Hungarians.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Kossuth's Hungary isn't destined to necessarily alienate the minorities - several parts of its program were things non-Hungarians could get behind too, abolition of serfdom and all that. For example the Serb movement supported the Hungarian revolutionaries in the first month of the upheaval, and they nearly reached an agreement in the autumn of 1848 again (due to Vienna's uncompromising attitude and blunders). If the Hungarian government acted with a bit more tact, played to its strengths and compromised on its weaknesses, they could have IMO reached an agreement with the Serbs and Romanians. Possibly Slovaks as well, although that might be harder.

Well, I disagree there.

Hungary wanted to impose Magyar as the language of the state and denied the validity of the ethnic aspirations of its constituent peoples. For a nation that was FOUNDED on ethnic and language rights, this is pretty short sighted.

I am always amused, reading history, how the Hungarians were so totally annoyed at 'German' imperialism in 'their' lands, but were shocked and betrayed that e.g. Croats felt the same about Hungarian imperialism.

If the Hungarians DID formally split from Austria, I'd bet they'd have real difficulties with their ethnic minorities. The Austrians would no doubt incite such unrest, 'what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander'. More to the point, the Hapsburgs might want to split off e.g. the Croats and Slovaks and get them back into the Hapsburg empire.

 

[Neoteros]

Well, I disagree there.

Hungary wanted to impose Magyar as the language of the state and denied the validity of the ethnic aspirations of its constituent peoples. For a nation that was FOUNDED on ethnic and language rights, this is pretty short sighted.

I am always amused, reading history, how the Hungarians were so totally annoyed at 'German' imperialism in 'their' lands, but were shocked and betrayed that e.g. Croats felt the same about Hungarian imperialism.

If the Hungarians DID formally split from Austria, I'd bet they'd have real difficulties with their ethnic minorities. The Austrians would no doubt incite such unrest, 'what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander'. More to the point, the Hapsburgs might want to split off e.g. the Croats and Slovaks and get them back into the Hapsburg empire.

It's what I call the Monrovia-Jerusalem Theorem: it doesn't matter how much a group of people (in this case, the Hungarians) has been marginalized, oppressed and/or shat upon by history; there will always be a group they will shit upon and, if there isn't one, they will create one.

 

[willyvereb]

Um, what?
That example could've made some sense if it was used on different nations, see the Slovenians.
But Dathi THorfinnsson had to mention the Croats as an example, who had special privileges both by the Hungarians and the Empire. Other nationalities tried to use them as an example what they may want.

Also I said before that "oppression" is a strange word to use when even in our neat and civilized world there are millions of nationalities living in a country which doesn't care about of their culture or language at all.

 

[Tibi088]

The revolutionist Hungary didnt want Croatia or at least gave up on it. Hungarian parlaiment declared Croatia independent of Hungary on the 27th of August 1848.

And mind that we are speaking of a Hungary led by Kossuth. He was ready to make deals with the various nationalities of the country.

 

[kalamona]

Well, I disagree there.

Hungary wanted to impose Magyar as the language of the state and denied the validity of the ethnic aspirations of its constituent peoples. For a nation that was FOUNDED on ethnic and language rights, this is pretty short sighted.

I am always amused, reading history, how the Hungarians were so totally annoyed at 'German' imperialism in 'their' lands, but were shocked and betrayed that e.g. Croats felt the same about Hungarian imperialism.

If the Hungarians DID formally split from Austria, I'd bet they'd have real difficulties with their ethnic minorities. The Austrians would no doubt incite such unrest, 'what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander'. More to the point, the Hapsburgs might want to split off e.g. the Croats and Slovaks and get them back into the Hapsburg empire.

Interesting opinion, but... no.

We are speaking about 1848: Hungary did not wanted to impose hungarian as the state (legistlative and buerocratic) language, because it already happened earlier. And the country certanly not founded on ethnic and language rights, because at that time, nobody cared...

German (Austrian) imperialism in an towards Hungary is quite an interesting topic, but its not on the table in that time, the target was feudalsim and bat-shit-crazy conservatism/absolutism.

So, back to my favourite mania: the 1848 revolution in Hungary was a liberal, progressive revolution, in a backward, feudal country.

Lets review the main, immediate demands:

- Free press, abolition of censorship
- Accountable government in Hungary (constitutional monarchy)
- Annual national assembly (parlament/diet)
- Religious and civil equality
- National Guard
- Burden sharing (taxes)
- Abolition of serdom
- Jury representation under equlity
- National bank
- Military have to take oath on the constitution, the foreign units hae to leave, the hungarian units on foreign lands have to return
- Release of the political prisoners
- Union with Transylvania

These demands made into law - ttbt, pretty much everything was provisional in those laws, setting up the basics, on the premise, that the next assembly will work out the details (for example, while the abolition of serfdom is effective immediately, the compesation of the nobility will be dealt in the next session).

So, im not suprised, that the slovak hardliners were hesitant.

And, after the negotiations with the nationalities - for the record, at the time of the russian intervention, but personally, i think, Szemere and the liberal cnservative assembly would have done so without it - the language and national problem was solved in a simple and effective way: the counties (wich were small enough) and the cities should decide, wich language should be there the official (legal, schools, local NG), if there is about 25% of the population speaking minority language, then those services (legal, buerocratic, school) should be provided in that language too and you can use any of those languages in dealings with the government (assembly, courts).

 

[machine3589]

More to the point, the Hapsburgs might want to split off e.g. the Croats and Slovaks and get them back into the Hapsburg empire.

The Croats raised an army and invaded Hungary. The Austrians don`t need to split them off from Hungary, it was already independent from it.

 

[kreepysam]

Assuming you are talking about the second stage of the Hungarian Revolution (e.g. outright Hungarian independence rather than autonomy under Franz Josef), successful Hungarian independence opens up a massive can of worms in Central Europe, quite similar to what happened OTL in WWI.

If the principle of national self-determination is allowed to stand in Hungary, then this will provide a massive impetus for similar determinations in the rump of Austria (esp. Bohemia) and within the new Hungarian state (Croatia, Transylvania, Serbia). Galicia will probably go its own way and become a Polish or Ukrainian state (depending on how the class warfare pans out). Immediately issues of national revanchism will appear on the table and these new states will probably go to war with each other.

Maybe, but not necessarily. This is still an age where the "principle of nationality" i.e. independently sovereign nation-states is a status reserved for the 'Great Nationalisms' of Europe. Furthermore, in this economically liberal age, only communities of economically viable scale and scope will be seriously countenanced by the great powers.

Hungary qualifies because they were once a large, independent power in the Balkans. Bohemia-Moravia have been under heavy German influence for hundreds of years and no disrespect to any Czechs here, but there is no Dvorak or Kafka in 1848 to give Czech society any prestige as a "high culture" in the minds of those running the Foreign offices of the European powers. The same applies to all the minor nationalisms of the Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats, Ruthenes/Galicians, Serbs, Transylvannians, etc. Although the point has already been made by previous posts that the situation is delicate, and cultural and political autonomy of sorts must necessarily be conceded to keep the peace, these people are going to be folded into a Grossdeutschland and Empire of Hungaria, should Austria split apart in 48-49.

EDIT: Obviously though, some will end up in other GP's borders as well e.g. Galicia to Russia, Istrians to Italy, etc