WI The Horse had never died out in the America

[Kenichiro Harada]

the horse will be an advantage, but the NAs are still going to be far behind the Old World. They will still lack pigs, cows, sheep, and goats, have no equivalent to wheat, etc. There's still the long delay in domesticating corn and acclimating it to the north. Once the C. American package of corn, beans, and squash gets up into the north, the historical farming villages of OTL will be able to do more, what with plowing, etc. Not sure how well horses will do down in the Maya/Aztec lands....

Really good point,it shows that horeses are not the main focus and for development..other things would be needed as well. I would think Central and South America would have more contact,but due to the arid climate..it would not be as good as in North America. (USA,Canada)

Various comments:


Extinction: Because evolution is constantly occurring, extinction is always occurring too. All species are always under threat from a variety of stressors. It's when an accumulation of stressors arise that extinction occurs.

Very good. It's nice to have a realistic view of it as well,if Extinction occurs..it's unavoidable. But what if other species went out? Would the live we all have now be different? Not having the horse is that crutial to the New World? The Old World as well?

 

[Bill Cameron]

Very good. It's nice to have a realistic view of it as well,if Extinction occurs..it's unavoidable. But what if other species went out? Would the live we all have now be different? Not having the horse is that crutial to the New World? The Old World as well?

Kenichiro,

What if other species, species man eventually domesticated, became extinct? The effects would strongly depend on the species.

The general lack of domesticated fauna was crucial in the development of the New World. The inhabitants there did not have the sources of labor, food, manure, and other products that inhabitants of other parts of the world enjoyed. Even the diseases those domesticated animals produced helped the societies that used them in the long run.

The same lack of domesticated fauna in the Old World would have most certainly delayed development their too. SJGames publishes a role-playing game called GURPS and one of the settings that game uses involves worlds with alternate histories. Most of these worlds follow the usual tropes, CSA or Hitler wins, but some explore very different PODs.

I know that one of the alternates is called "Walkers World" and in it there are no riding animals. They either became extinct or weren't domesticated. I don't know what the situation is regarding beasts of burden in this alternate and neither do I know what other animals were domesticated. I've only heard of the setting and have never actually read the published materials, so I can't tell you anymore than I already have. I don't even know if it's a developed setting or a clutch of paragraphs.

Perhaps someone here owns it and can chime in?


Bill

 

[Admiral Brown]

Really good point,it shows that horeses are not the main focus and for development..other things would be needed as well. I would think Central and South America would have more contact,but due to the arid climate..it would not be as good as in North America. (USA,Canada)

I don't get it.

Firstly, most Central and South America aren't precisely arid. Northern Mexico is, and so is the Southern coast of Perú and the North of Chile. Eastern Patagonia may be called a cold desert. But, other than that, there's not that much arid land in what's now Latin America.

Secondly, I don't see why the fact that, let's say, northern Mexico is arid would make the horse useless. On the contrary, they would be of great use. Horses where domesticated in arid regions like central Asia, and where of excelent use in arid places like Morocco or Arabia, where they never where never completely replaced by cammels. If it's usefull there, it would have been of greater use in Northern Mexico.

The main obstacles central and South America pose for horses aren't arid regions, but mountains (the Andes) and jungles (the Amazon and the Istmus of Panama). They aren't obstacles that would totably avoid the difussion of horses (domesticated or not), but might significally delay it. However, we must remember that the Spaniards took horses almost everywhere, from Panamá to the highest peaks in the Andes. I don't know if they took them to the Amazon, but they did take them everywhere else (many died, but that's another story)

The best terrains for horses in South America would be the region formed by Argentine pampas, Uruguay and Southern Brazil (IOTL, after the Spanish came, horses where adopted by local Indians; the Europeans, in turn, created a sort of "culture", the Gaucho culture, in which horses played a significant roll).

The second best would be Venezuelan sabanas, where horses -and a horse based culture (the "llaneros") - thrived in OTL, after the Spanish brought them here.

In central America & OTL Mexico, the best place would prabably be central and Northern Mexico

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I remember an intriguing alternate history where the Americas do not exist and once claim made is that while the horse became extinct in North America, possibly never arriving in South America, it came to Eurasia from North America originally so absent North America means no horses anywhere.

 

[Domoviye]

Something that horses would change in North America is buffalo hunting.
When the Plains Indians began riding horses they were amazed at how easy buffalo hunting became.
With the large buffalo herds it would take dozens of people to successfully and safely hunt buffalo and many days of preparation. Buffalo were too fast, too large and too numerous to safely or successfully hunt alone on foot with only a spear or arrow.
With a horse a person could keep up to the buffalo as they ran, and shooting arrows at or spearing the buffalo became safer, as the wounded buffalo couldn't simply turn and gore the much slower hunter.
So if Indians domesticated horses and then followed the Eurasian pattern of eventually riding horses or even simply making chariots, it would really increase the food supply for the Indians. Instead of having a massive hunt once or twice a year, and storing the meat for several months. They could hunt buffalo regularly which would reduce the risk of starvation from a single bad hunt, and ultimately would lead to a larger population of Indians.

It also opens up the possibility of domesticating the buffalo.
Buffalo can be domesticated, its just harder to do then with other animals. So for Indians who could only walk it wasn't worth the effort or risk. With horses it becomes possible. If the buffalo herd stampedes riders can get out of the way more easily or keep up to them, unlike people merely running. If you're walking beside your buffalo herd and it suddenly runs away at about 30kmp, for an hour or two its going to take you all day to catch up to it. Or if a buffalo decides your an enemy you're going to have to move very fast to avoid it stomping or goring you.
With horses, dealing with buffalo is so much easier, and domestication becomes possible and practical.

 

[Tobit]

Something that horses would change in North America is buffalo hunting.
When the Plains Indians began riding horses they were amazed at how easy buffalo hunting became.
With the large buffalo herds it would take dozens of people to successfully and safely hunt buffalo and many days of preparation. Buffalo were too fast, too large and too numerous to safely or successfully hunt alone on foot with only a spear or arrow.
With a horse a person could keep up to the buffalo as they ran, and shooting arrows at or spearing the buffalo became safer, as the wounded buffalo couldn't simply turn and gore the much slower hunter.
So if Indians domesticated horses and then followed the Eurasian pattern of eventually riding horses or even simply making chariots, it would really increase the food supply for the Indians. Instead of having a massive hunt once or twice a year, and storing the meat for several months. They could hunt buffalo regularly which would reduce the risk of starvation from a single bad hunt, and ultimately would lead to a larger population of Indians.

It also opens up the possibility of domesticating the buffalo.
Buffalo can be domesticated, its just harder to do then with other animals. So for Indians who could only walk it wasn't worth the effort or risk. With horses it becomes possible. If the buffalo herd stampedes riders can get out of the way more easily or keep up to them, unlike people merely running. If you're walking beside your buffalo herd and it suddenly runs away at about 30kmp, for an hour or two its going to take you all day to catch up to it. Or if a buffalo decides your an enemy you're going to have to move very fast to avoid it stomping or goring you.
With horses, dealing with buffalo is so much easier, and domestication becomes possible and practical.

Buffalo hunting had existed long before the introduction of horses to North America. The pre-contact indians dealt with the buffalo by strategically lighting the prairie on fire and essentially herding the buffalo into gullies or even off cliffs. The buffalo would throw themselves off of the cliffs herds at a time. This style of hunting is extremely effective and had been used since the time of the Clovis people.

 

[Domoviye]

Buffalo hunting had existed long before the introduction of horses to North America. The pre-contact indians dealt with the buffalo by strategically light the prairie on fire and essentially herding the buffalo into gullies or even off cliffs. The buffalo would throw themselves off of the cliffs herds at a time. This style of hunting is extremely effective and had been used since the time of the Clovis people.

I know. I said that the Indians did hunt buffalo a few times a year. But it was a few times a year only.

It still took several days to get the buffalo to the right place by many small groups of men scaring the buffalo into the area. Then they would have to light the fires, and keep the buffalo from running between the blazes by more groups of people using torches.
It was long and dangerous.
Also if something went wrong the buffalo could avoid the cliff by running through a group of Indians and getting past the fire. If a patch of grass didn't burn quickly enough, or the wind blew the flame in the wrong direction the buffalo might get away.
If it rained to heavily the hunt couldn't work nearly as effectively.
I'm not saying that horses would end this type of hunting. It was a great way to get a large supply of meat for the winter months, but a single bad hunt could leave a tribe or tribes risking starvation.
With horses they could have a more effective and safer large hunt, as well as minor hunts throughout the year. That way if there was an unseasonal rainstorm right before the big hunt they wouldn't have to worry about starving due to lack of dry burnable material. Just have horsemen ride out and kill buffalo from horseback for several days in a systematic hunt.

 

[Tobit]

Oh, well then I agree completely. Domestication of Buffalo I think could be achieved quite easily. By easily, I think it would take probably a thousand years or two. Horses would help along this as far as giving the Indians a better tool for herding.

Another possible difference that horses would bring for domestication would be the potential for diseases within buffalo herds. With horses and buffalo side by side there might be a transmission of some kind of cross species disease. This is not unlikely considering thousands of years of close proximity to each other.

If disease breaks out in the Buffalo population there might be some longterm temperament changes or other evolutionary changes.

 

[Domoviye]

Definitely Tobit. If horses and buffalo were domesticated, and other animals like the turkey, Guiana pig, and Muscovy Duck, were more widely spread and possibly a domesticated Canadian Goose was farmed as well, there would be a few interesting diseases in North and South America by the time the Europeans came. How it would affect the animals themselves, and people in general would make all kinds of enjoyable butterflies.

 

[Alexius]

Booze: Pre-contact societies in the Americas had any number of brewed alcoholic beverages. What they had no experience with was distilled alcoholic beverages and in that they were no different from other societies ranging from Africa to Australasia and across the Pacific.


Bill

Sorry to be necro-ing this point: in Central Asia they can make some pretty strong alcoholic drinks by freeze-distillation of fermented mare's milk. I believe it's called airag.

Also, I have heard that they have found evidence of giant ground sloths domesticated for meat- fur, dung and skeletons found in a stone pen in a cave.

 

[Dave Howery]

I dunno if bison are domesticable... to be sure, they're not particularly ferocious, for such a big animal, but they also don't have that 'alpha male' type of society that allows a human to take over and dominate them. In the modern era, we've managed to 'farm' them by basically penning them in with strong modern materials, letting them breed as they will, and culling them. By no means do we dominate and control them, as we do with cattle. Bison are notorious for busting through fences if it pleases them to go somewhere else. This is a sort of semi-domestication; however, it relies on modern materials that Native Americans wouldn't have. I don't think you could domesticate them out in the open just because you have horses. Buffalo aren't prone to being driven somewhere against their will (except for the 'scare them until they run in a panic' type of hunt). Also, bison have a strong migratory urge that would be incredibly inconvenient when you're trying to herd them. I think that the natives on horses would just hunt them more intensively, not domesticate them...

 

[Bill Cameron]

Sorry to be necro-ing this point: in Central Asia they can make some pretty strong alcoholic drinks by freeze-distillation of fermented mare's milk. I believe it's called airag.

Alexius,

It and other similar beverages were discussed in this thread. Freeze distillation produces no where near the concentrations "steam" distillation does and requires a specific climate too.

Sorry to be necro-ing the actual explanation but, as already discussed, it was distilled alcohol and the quantities in which it was available and the fact that such availability existed outside of existing societal control which have led to many difficulties societies ranging from Africa, Australasia, across the Pacific, and in the Americas.

Also, I have heard that they have found evidence of giant ground sloths domesticated for meat- fur, dung and skeletons found in a stone pen in a cave.

That's evidence of captured sloths and nothing else. By that "evidence", all zoo animals are "domesticated".

Domestication is a specific process and one that is too rarely understood in questions of this type. A few years back, one poster claimed that because bears were bred in captivity for eventual "entertainment" purposes, those animals were some how "domesticated".

A similar misunderstanding is currently at work in this thread with the ludicrous suggestions that Native Americans could have domesticated bison. Leaving aside the social aspects of the species which mean it still isn't domesticated and is instead penned, we weren't even able to corral bison until the development of barbwire and yet a paleolithic people are somehow going to able to manage the same feat without it?

The natives of the Americas weren't idiots. They brought a domesticated species to the Western hemisphere with them and domesticate others after their arrival. Humanity as a whole domesticated nearly every viable fauna domestication candidate in our prehistory. The only species capable of domestication that escaped that process were those in remote areas and/or of limited geographical scope.

Taming is not domestication, penning is not domestication, and anyone who thinks bison can even be penned - outside of rare geological features like box canyons - with paleolithic technology really needs to look at an actual bison.


Bill

 

[Domoviye]

A similar misunderstanding is currently at work in this thread with the ludicrous suggestions that Native Americans could have domesticated bison. Leaving aside the social aspects of the species which mean it still isn't domesticated and is instead penned, we weren't even able to corral bison until the development of barbwire and yet a paleolithic people are somehow going to able to manage the same feat without it?

The natives of the Americas weren't idiots. They brought a domesticated species to the Western hemisphere with them and domesticate others after their arrival. Humanity as a whole domesticated nearly every viable fauna domestication candidate in our prehistory. The only species capable of domestication that escaped that process were those in remote areas and/or of limited geographical scope.

Taming is not domestication, penning is not domestication, and anyone who thinks bison can even be penned - outside of rare geological features like box canyons - with paleolithic technology really needs to look at an actual bison.

Bill

Thanks for the info it's something I'll have to look at that more closely.
But neither I or Tobit called the Indians idiots. We both realized there are problems with domesticating bison. I specifically said trying to do it on foot would be impossible.
I merely said that with horses it may become possible. In OTL when horses came to North America they also came with cattle, which made the idea of domesticating bison at the time difficult and impractical, instead of completely impossible.
So once more thanks for the info, and can you give me some links as to where I can get more info like this? Most of my information says bison are merely hard to handle, not virtually impossible.

 

[Bill Cameron]

I merely said that with horses it may become possible. In OTL when horses came to North America they also came with cattle, which made the idea of domesticating bison at the time difficult and impractical, instead of completely impossible.

Domoviye,

Domestication would only be difficult and impractical? We haven't yet managed it with guns, jeeps, helos, Mendelian genetics, and barbwire in 2009. How will giving horses to people with a paleolithic level of technology suddenly make it only difficult and impractical?

So once more thanks for the info, and can you give me some links as to where I can get more info like this?

Get up from your computer, go to the library, check out Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel, and read the book. People have and do quibble about portions of his work, but his discussion and explanations regarding domestication are not among those portions.

This might give you some idea of what domestication entails; of the roughly 150 land-dwelling mammals that possibly could be domestication candidates, man has managed to domesticate all of 14 over several thousand years.

Most of my information says bison are merely hard to handle, not virtually impossible.

We're not talking about "handling" bison, we're talking about farming them. Penning and/or taming individual animals is not the same as domesticating a species.


Bill

 

[Domoviye]

Peace.
I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact I'm leaning towards you, and asking for more info to see it from your angle and confirm somethings.
Now first off, I have "Guns, Germs, and Steel", its an excellent book. As you said it is wrong in some areas, not a lot but some. I am curious if the bison could be another area.
I realize that bison would be hard to domesticate from that book and other sources as well. Thats why I haven't said "Oh yeah, if Natives had horses, everyone would be eating bison burgers." I know some information I'm looking for more.
As for getting up from my computer, I'd love to. But I'm in Nanjing China right now. Getting English books for a good price is hard. Getting books on Flora and Fauna of North America is impossible. And Amazon isn't the best way to get books, too many ways for the package to get lost.

Now heres some questions for you. How long have they been trying to domesticate bison?
I know in Russia they have been trying to domesticate Silver Foxes for 50 years with a lot more safe guards than most bison herders that I have heard of. They've had some success, but the silver fox is still considered too violent and aggressive to be domesticated.
For Bison sure people have tried to domesticate them since the late 1800's but from my understanding most of these were individuals who usually ran out of money or patience and gave it up as a bad job after several years to a decade. Hardly a long term effort.

Domestication would only be difficult and impractical? We haven't yet managed it with guns, jeeps, helos, Mendelian genetics, and barbwire in 2009. How will giving horses to people with a paleolithic level of technology suddenly make it only difficult and impractical?

That comment of mine was suppose to be tongue in cheek.
I'm thinking long term, over a time period of a 1000 or more years. Given enough time it "MAY" be possible, but people on foot could not do it. Even if the Indians had guns and everything else they would not be able to do it without a fast means of transportation.
Horses and time "MAY" be enough. But by the the time horses came to North America, they came with cattle, sheep, goats, etc. So there was no need to go through a difficult and time consuming process of attempting to domesticate an animal that may never be domesticated. Why reinvent the Model T when you have a Hummer next door.
So this has been interesting, and you have given me some more things to look for. I'll start looking. Any advice on books, or websites would be nice, but not necessary.
Have a nice day.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Peace.

Domoviye,

Please believe me when I say I'm not "angry" or "upset" and haven't been in any my posts to this thread. Truely.

Now first off, I have "Guns, Germs, and Steel", its an excellent book. As you said it is wrong in some areas, not a lot but some. I am curious if the bison could be another area.

Not "wrong" per se. People have quibbles about some of his more grander conclusions. The basic stuff in the book is generally agreed to be correct. Indeed, most of the basics he discusses were published well before in academic papers and books like Crosby's "Ecological Imperialism" from 1986. Diamond simply wrote a more "popular" and "accessible" book on a topic academics had been discussing for decades.

Now heres some questions for you. How long have they been trying to domesticate bison?

There's no real need to domesticate bison because our technology allows us to merely pen them instead. Domestication efforts have been attempted since the colonial period however, bison once ranged east of the Mississippi too.

I know in Russia they have been trying to domesticate Silver Foxes for 50 years with a lot more safe guards than most bison herders that I have heard of. They've had some success, but the silver fox is still considered too violent and aggressive to be domesticated.

Exactly, they still can't be domesticated despite our technology so they're merely kept captive and "ranched" instead.

For Bison sure people have tried to domesticate them since the late 1800's but from my understanding most of these were individuals who usually ran out of money or patience and gave it up as a bad job after several years to a decade. Hardly a long term effort.

You simply must read up on domestication in order to get a better handle on it. If you haven't produced a docile strain that can "live" in proximity to humans within a few generations, you're not going to get one without resorting to genetic engineering.

I'm thinking long term, over a time period of a 1000 or more years.

Are you serious? An effort that lasts ten centuries? Paleolithic humans are somehow able to control the breeding of an animal for the centuries needed to domesticate it? Seriously?

The "breeding effort" that allowed maize cultivation to move north from Central America to the Ohio valley and beyond lasted thousands of years, but maize "remained" domesticated as it was "bred" to grow at different latitudes. Suggesting that a wild animal would somehow maintain each incremental change so that the next could be undertaken for the duration of a ten century domestication is ASB.

So there was no need to go through a difficult and time consuming process of attempting to domesticate an animal that may never be domesticated.

May never be domesticated or can never be domesticated without direct genetic intervention? We're not talking about breeding roses here. We're talking about a violent, horned, migratory, herbivore whose adults weigh as much as 1,000 kg.


Bill

 

[Hnau]

I think the question we need to be asking and answering is "when is it plausible that the horse is domesticated in the Americas, if it survived?" It is theorized that the domestication of the horse began when they were corralled and kept as meat livestock. When people began 'farming' horses, they also figured out that by becoming part of the birthing process for foals, and keeping them as pets, made them much more docile. They then figured out that they were as or more useful to ride as they were to eat, and horsemanship developed.

Llamas were domesticated in Peru by 3500 BCE. I would think that it would be sometime after this point where the Amerindians in North America are able to domesticate the horse plausibly, if not much, much later (say, 2000 BCE when corn began to be developed in Mesoamerica).

 

[Kalan]

Domoviye,

Exactly, they still can't be domesticated despite our technology so they're merely kept captive and "ranched" instead.

This is simply wrong, the silver forx was domesticated and is even sold as pet. You can look it up at wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox and if that isn't reliable than try the links at the bottom.

 

[Evil Tristin]

Not too sure of the POD, but what happens if Horses don't die out in the Americas? Would there just be another civilization pretty much similar to others or are there other things that make the Americas a unique case?

More advanced native civilizations. Maybe civilizations that are comparable to old world Asian civilization?

 

[Bill Cameron]

This is simply wrong, the silver forx was domesticated and is even sold as pet.

Kalan,

Read your own link again.

The Soviet project took nearly 50 years of effort to produce all of 700 domesticated examples. That number is now around 100 and they've been selling individuals to further fund their research. Are you suggesting that a paleolithic people could have attempted the same program? Or that the effort has produced an animal useful as anything other than a pet?

Most tellingly, despite the program's success, the vast majority of silver foxes in human "custody" are still undomesticated, are kept penned, and are "ranched" rather than farmed. This quite laudable Russian achievement isn't a true domestication success because the people raising silver foxes for a living haven't shifted to raising the domesticated version and the availability of a domesticated version hasn't led more people to begin raising them. Indeed, the article specifically notes that the project's actual purpose was to learn how dogs may have been domesticated and not about domesticating a useful animal.

This is a "blue rose" or "glow-in-the-dark mouse" program, the effort was undertaken for the research possibilities alone and any results beyond those research goals are of little actual worth.

(Domoviye - the domestication page Kalan's link links to seems to be a good place to start.)


Bill