WI: The Holy Roman Empire Restored?

So the Holy Roman Empire was abolished in 6 August 1806 by Emperor Francis II, party in response to Napoleon's victory at Austerlitz and party to keep Napoleon from claiming the title. In 1815 the German Confederation was founded as a Replacement to the Empire, again led by the Austrian Empire. So lets say that instead of founding a new German Confederation the HRE is restored at the Congress of Vienna. How would this effect history? Would Prussia claim the title of Holy Roman Emperor after Austro-Prussian War? Instead of being founded in 1870 would the HRE remain? What about after WWI (if it still occurs) would the Empire be dissolved or again transformed?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Austerlitz
 
The biggest problem is getting all the German/Germanesque nations to agree to be part of the empire once again...and a legal precedent to restablish it, but mostly the former
 
The biggest problem is getting all the German/Germanesque nations to agree to be part of the empire once again...and a legal precedent to restablish it, but mostly the former

Why wouldn't they? A lot of minor states were in favor of restoring the Empire especially the rulers of the former Rhine states but it was rejected. No to mention the states agreed to join in a Confederation so the only real difference would be in the name. As for legal precedent, if could be argued that the Emperor had no right to dissolve the empire in the first place or perhaps the Pope could help out.... Anyhow there was no precedent for dissolving it either so I would assume the it could be just as easily restored though I'm not sure if the Electors would be restored as well or what the situation with the new Kingdoms of Bavaria, Saxony, Hanover and Württemberg would be, since the only Kingdom that was legally allowed to exist in the Empire was Bohemia. But if the Empire was restored i would guess these issues would be resolved by the German Rulers or at least the new German Kings and Emperor Francis.
 
There are several obstacles to restoration, one is the disagreement over who is gonna be emperor since The Prussians as well as ever other anti-Austrian state will not want to see another Hapsburg resurgence, and then there's also the issue of the faith of the emperor. A protestant Hohenzollern is gonna be rejected by every catholic, as is a catholic Hapsburg by every protestant. And then there's the usual antagonism between Austria and Prussia over other general authoritative matters, and the fact that none of the smaller princes will want the possibility of any autonomy of theirs taken away.


But the biggest reason I think is simply because the empire even before Napoleon was already a corpse on life support that existed really only on paper and name (if even that). It's dissolution was really just making official what everyone already knew for decades already. Point is it was a old archaic institution from a different time that no longer fit into the altered political nature of the post Napoleonic world and everyone knew that.
 
There are several obstacles to restoration, one is the disagreement over who is gonna be emperor since The Prussians as well as ever other anti-Austrian state will not want to see another Hapsburg resurgence, and then there's also the issue of the faith of the emperor. A protestant Hohenzollern is gonna be rejected by every catholic, as is a catholic Hapsburg by every protestant. And then there's the usual antagonism between Austria and Prussia over other general authoritative matters, and the fact that none of the smaller princes will want the possibility of any autonomy of theirs taken away.


But the biggest reason I think is simply because the empire even before Napoleon was already a corpse on life support that existed really only on paper and name (if even that). It's dissolution was really just making official what everyone already knew for decades already. Point is it was a old archaic institution from a different time that no longer fit into the altered political nature of the post Napoleonic world and everyone knew that.

In the end I think the Habsburg still win, because their Bohemia and their Austria are included in the Empire territories and the Hohenzollern know who they can not be the rulers if Austria is involved (and at the time of the Congress of Vienna Prussia had little power or none to impose their will to the others but Austria and Russia had that power)
 
If somehow it did happen I could see more a name, than anything else. Trade more than conquest. Others could join in under that name. An EEC but 80 years earlier.
 
What if the German Empire just called themself "The Holy Roman Empire".

I highly doubt it as The Prussians were very adamant about excluding Austria from "Their" Germany in any way possible. Hence why they called themselves the German empire or why the kaiser was German Emperor instead of Emperor of Germany or why they even chose the Red White Black tricolor for their flag instead of the pan german red gold black one. The HRE was seen as both a pan german institution as well as a Austrian one and somewhat of a Catholic one though I could be wrong on that last part, but point is it's only gonna be called that if The Austrians are a part and also powerful as well and even then there's no guarantees.
 
I highly doubt it as The Prussians were very adamant about excluding Austria from "Their" Germany in any way possible. Hence why they called themselves the German empire or why the kaiser was German Emperor instead of Emperor of Germany or why they even chose the Red White Black tricolor for their flag instead of the pan german red gold black one. The HRE was seen as both a pan german institution as well as a Austrian one and somewhat of a Catholic one though I could be wrong on that last part, but point is it's only gonna be called that if The Austrians are a part and also powerful as well and even then there's no guarantees.

Thats not why the Prussian King called himself German Emperor. He called himself that because the title of Emperor of Germany was unacceptable to the federated monarchs (Kings of Bavaria, Saxony Wurttemberg ex) , and would also have signalled a claim to lands outside his realm(Switzerland,Luxembourg and the German Austrian Territories). Also I'm pretty sure the reason the Pan-German flag wasn't used was because of its association with revolutionaries (like the 1848 revolution). My idea was to have the German Confederation be created but named the Holy Roman Empire. It would be the perfect symbol of the reactionary-ism that took hold of Europe after the Napoleonic wars.
 
Thats not why the Prussian King called himself German Emperor. He called himself that because the title of Emperor of Germany was unacceptable to the federated monarchs (Kings of Bavaria, Saxony Wurttemberg ex) , and would also have signalled a claim to lands outside his realm(Switzerland,Luxembourg and the German Austrian Territories). Also I'm pretty sure the reason the Pan-German flag wasn't used was because of its association with revolutionaries (like the 1848 revolution). My idea was to have the German Confederation be created but named the Holy Roman Empire. It would be the perfect symbol of the reactionary-ism that took hold of Europe after the Napoleonic wars.

Nuts, I forgot to mention that.
 
Restore the HRE at the Congress of Vienna?
Historically most of the lesser german monarchs were in favor of the restoration of the HRE, as they felt threatened by the possibility of a resurging France as well as by Prussia.
I'm not sure about Prussia's stance in this case as it might politcally might have opposed it but was not yet contesting Austria over the case of forming a german nationstate.
It's mainly due to Russian and British interests that the German states were only organized in a loose federation. Britain: Containing French might by building buffer states, without giving anyone enough to pose a real threat to British ambitions. Russia: avoid a strong neighbour.

So in nucleus it would be:
Austria and the lesser minor german states (foremost Saxony, and the deposed Pince-Archbishops)
vs.
Russia
Prussia and the bigger minor german states (Bavaria and Württemberg foremost)
Britain, who rules Hannover in personal union and will not allow the newly formed Netherlands to be part of the HRE

It would not be fair to say that only the foreign powers are to blame, especially the monarchs of the former Rheinbund, allies of Napoleon, where not absolutely in favor of gaining a new liege. But mainly fearing to loose their titles or territories they got from the hands of Napoleon.

Faith should not be a major obstacle, as the German kings, dukes, princes and so forth, where way more obesessed with power (territory, titles, money, prestige) than with religious beliefs. I'm not aware to ever came across religious differences concerning the German states while reading about the congress.


What you need?
I guess a POD that is sometime before 1815 that either changes the political situation at the congress (changing Russia's opinion for example) or change the circumstances/presets under which the congress is held upon.
I for one would do the latter, change the way in which/how/by whom Napoleon is defeated and go on from there. The lesser Russia's and Britain's role in the affair the lesser they could interfere in the post-war order of Germany.

I for one are doing something similar in a TL, but it ends in a "Liberal Kaiserreich"-Wank. But just to give you an idea here it goes: The Austrians are really lucky in 1809 and not only win against Napoleon at Aspern but also in the following battle at Wagram and thus force Napoleon to retreat. Meanwhile morale is skyhigh in most of the german states (as it was in OTL after Aspern) and young German men are flocking to the Freikorps (kind of guerrilla troops) pestering the French and their vassals all over Germany. Incited by Austrian victories the Prussian king stops wavering and sides against Napoleon...
In the end you may end up with France defeated mainly by the German states and a conference on which the Russian and British delegations have little say.



A Sidenote: Pan-germanic flag
I hear this name for the very-first time. And I must say it does not only sound very strange but outright wrong. The name alone brings very unpleasant pictures to my brain.
The flag you are describing, gold-red-black from top to bottom, is nothing else but the flag that was used in the revolution of 1848 and is used today by the Federal Republic of Germany; in the nineteenth century it was not uncommon to read flag colors bottom to top.
I would prefer it to call it the liberal flag or something like this, pan-germanic sounds like they were going to invade Russia the next second. (sorry I couldn't resist)
 
Last edited:
As far as I know, Prussia was much more positiv the HRE-restauration then Austria. In the end the restauration of the HRE failed, because Austria (means Metternich) simply wasn´t interessted. A reason may be, that if the austrian emporer became Holy Roman Emperor again, the Prussian King would need some kind of promotion too. The prussian idea was, that their King became Reichsfeldherr (imperial commander) for northern Germany.
 
Also, it's more than just a name. The HRE had institutions and had laws and ways of doing things - you'd be messing with several aspects of the situation in 1815, or having to find ways to make it work despite the changes, which really isn't worth the hassle.
 
From the discussion it seems like the smaller states liked the HRE... but mediatization was already a fait accompli by the time of Vienna, wasn't it? I don't think that restoring the Empire would necessarily lead the greater German rulers to give up their new acquisitions.
 
Top