WI: The Grand Duchy of Elsass-Lothringen?

Unique among the Kaiserreich's European territories, the former French province of Alsase-Lorraine; taken as we all know from France following the Franco-Prussian War and the initial formation of the German Empire, did not enjoy the local autonomy of the Empire's other component Kingdoms. Rather, it became an 'Imperial Territory' governed directly from Berlin, in a manner more similar to those African territories. Obviously, alongside ethno-lingusitic strife this contributed to alot of ill-well between the Alsasers and the rest of Germany, which made me wonder; what if Elasass-Lothringen (As the territory was known in German) had been formed into a Grand Duchy or Kingdom following its seizure from France, and treated as a part of Germany on par with the other substantial pre-existing states such as Bavaria or Saxony?

Obviously, there'd be a few issues: the language of administration, for one (Would the Imperial government insist they put all offical documentation and procedings in German? Could it be Bi-lingual?) and the identity of the monarch and just how much power they'd be given (Elevating a local notable to the rank of nobility is one option, but another possability is installing one of the houses deposed following the dissolution of their states in the Austro-Prussian War.) But these are hardly unsolvable issues.
 
Obviously, there'd be a few issues: the language of administration, for one (Would the Imperial government insist they put all offical documentation and procedings in German? Could it be Bi-lingual?) and the identity of the monarch and just how much power they'd be given (Elevating a local notable to the rank of nobility is one option, but another possability is installing one of the houses deposed following the dissolution of their states in the Austro-Prussian War.) But these are hardly unsolvable issues.
What's the issue with the language of administration? Alsatians speak a dialect of Alemmanic German (like Swiss German).

Besides, Wilhelm II planned on giving it to Franz Ferdinand's children IIRC. The reason they had it be an imperial territory was because everyone wanted a chunk of it, Bismarck didn't want it in the first place. It kept competing claims from being attached to it.

Besides, who would they have elevated? The Hanoverians?
 
The issue with giving it local rule is that there were strong pro-French sentiments, with pro-French parties winning sweepingly until 1890 or so. The politics of a pro-French assembly being elected if was an equal subdivision would be interesting, especially in the early days when the German Empire was a fairly decentralized entity.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
I think this idea crops up every now and then :) - inside the last few weeks even, IIRC.
IMO this is what should had been done in OTL. I believe that part of the pro-French sentiment was anti-Prussian sentiment. Something which greater autonomy (which making it a principality would de facto be) would eliminate.
As to the scale of official use of French - that'd be up to the "local administration", and not the federal authorities.
In civil matters the monarch would have the same powers as all other Princes.
In military matters - that'd depend upon the treaty between E-L and Prussia. If made into a Kingdom then same status as Wurtemburg (significant autonomy), if Grossherzogtum - Baden or Hessen (no autonomy).

WII was not a factor in 1871.
 
As far as I know, pre WWI 1914 the integration was going well and the population was more or less seeing itself as German. At least until WWI when suspiccions raised their ugly head and demaged much of that.
If in a TL EL is integrated more fully into the German Empire, like an integration after a set amount of time, maybe 15 - 25 years, it would present much of an improvement over OTL.

What would also be an interesting question is how would France deal with an EL that was an integrated part of Germany and did not suffer from the pointless haressment during the war?
 
The issue with giving it local rule is that there were strong pro-French sentiments, with pro-French parties winning sweepingly until 1890 or so. The politics of a pro-French assembly being elected if was an equal subdivision would be interesting, especially in the early days when the German Empire was a fairly decentralized entity.

Having a duchy and being exempted from the Kulturkampf would accelerate the integration of the region by a lot, really just look at how much the removal of Bismark changed electoral behaviour in the region:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsland_Elsaß-Lothringen#Ergebnisse_der_Reichstagswahlen_1874–1912

The usage of French is unimportant, only the minority would really use it long term and that amount at 10-15% of the population, not much overall.
 
During WW1, they planned to give Lorraine to Prussia, northern Alsace to Bavaria and southern Alsace to Baden. Bavaria also thought about exchanging Badish Palatinate for all of Alsace, to get a landbridge.

Besides, Wilhelm II planned on giving it to Franz Ferdinand's children IIRC.

Interesting idea, but where did you read this? I'm not even sure he could decide that all alone.
 
Besides, who would they have elevated? The Hanoverians?

That's one possibility. Another would be the House of Nassau, of which the current Grand Duke of Luxembourg is head. Indeed, maybe Adolpheus is offered the region as part of Luxembourg and its elevation to Kingdom status in exchange for joining the Reich; not that he or his government would nessicerily accept, but it's a possible offer at least.
 
Giving the Hannoverians land there would be weird, the people in Hannover wanted their kingdom back and giving their kings that land would be quite weird.
 
Giving the Hannoverians land there would be weird, the people in Hannover wanted their kingdom back and giving their kings that land would be quite weird.

They weren't even allowed to inherit Brunswick until 1913. But either Nassau or Hesse-Kassel would be possible. Perhaps Alsace to one and Lorraine to the other.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
During WW1, they planned to give Lorraine to Prussia, northern Alsace to Bavaria and southern Alsace to Baden. Bavaria also thought about exchanging Badish Palatinate for all of Alsace, to get a landbridge.
I can see Regiringsbezirk Lothringen being added to the Rheinland (Prussia), Niederelsass to the Pfalz (Bavaria) and Oberelsass to Baden (Baden). Which would piss off the locals, I believe. Even if there was no (strong) feeling of unity with Elsass in Lothringen, Elsass itself was an item, no? Breaking it up could cause resentment for the next two generations.
If it was me doing it - I'd add (at least) both Nieder- and Oberelsass to Baden, call the whole thing Koenigreich Elsass and move the capital to Strasburg. Fifty years later everybody identifies as descendents of the winning side at Teuteburger Wald ...

I think something is wrong about the part in italics, though. There is Wurtemberg and Baden "in the way" - and regardless of whether we are talking about the Pfalz or Elsass.

I've seen mentioned in passing OTL Bavarian world domination plans involving acquisition of a landbridge to the Pfalz - but wasn't that just idle talk?
 
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I can see Regiringsbezirk Lothringen being added to the Rheinland (Prussia), Niederelsass to the Pfalz (Bavaria) and Oberelsass to Baden (Baden). Which would piss off the locals, I believe. Even if there was no (strong) feeling of unity with Elsass in Lothringen, Elsass itself was an item, no? Breaking it up could cause resentment for the next two generations.
If it was me doing it - I'd add (at least) both Nieder- and Oberelsass to Baden, call the whole thing Koenigreich Elsass and move the capital to Strasburg. Fifty years later everybody identifies as descendents of the winning side at Teuteburger Wald ...

That certainly has the potential to be viewed positively by Baden (Sans if they're being forced to move the capital rather than doing so willingly). Though, I'm not sure this would be internally politically viable in 1870 due to conflicting demands of Empire's member states.
 
No, it makes sense - Baden gets all of Elsass, Bavaria gets the north of Baden so Pfalz and core Bavaria are connected.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
OK - I somehow always imagine that Wurtemberg reached that far north ... and pre-1806/15 Pfalz was on both sides of the Rhine too ...
 
Doing this n a CP victory or scenario in which Princip's plot fails could see the Hohenburgs as obvious candidates for the Grand Duchy. But, in the nineteenth century, there are no shortage of German princes on whom the grand ducal title could be bestowed. I just don't know who would make the most sense.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
As there is a curse of plenty of possible candidates from amongst German Princely Houses - maybe a cadet branch of the House of Lothringen?
It'd be restored to its ancestral lands? Also patches up relations with Vienna ...
What about Beauharnais - at this point German-Russian royalty (ma Romanov, one grandma Wittelsbach, the other Hohenzollern ) ... and it'd be a (little) bone for the francophilies too ...
 
I wrote a timeline with a setup for this recently combining the Pfalz/Palatinate with Alsace as a 'Pfalzace' with Lorraine being reunited, becoming a separate bilingual entity under a different German princeling. Details were to be presented by Professor Emeritus Nicholas Romanov of Stanford University's Department of History for his annual Christmas lecture (in that TL's 1944).
 
I was thinking of this guy:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_de_Beauharnais
No English wiki, sorry.
Already married morganatically at this point - but he has two unmarried younger brothers ... and who says that House Beauharnais has to divide marriages into dynastic and non-dynastic? After all great-grandma was just some slaveowner's daughter from Haiti ...

Actually if you go look at the French wiki article on the Tascher de la Pageries, they were already in the royal household from some point in the middle ages IIRC. Josephine had a couple of relatives who had served in the households of Louis XV's daughters and of the Dauphine Marie Josèphe. Not exactly the Plantagenets - to quote Violet Crawley - but certainly not nobodies. Until I looked into it, I had always been under the impression that Josephine was just a planter's daughter, and that her entrée in to the nobility came from her marriage/husband.
 
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