WI: The Germans were Latinized?

Valdemar II

Banned
In a less warlike atmosphere, perhaps after a century of secure and centralized Roman rule in Germania after Augustus' time, with growing townships, land clearances, drained marshes, and the introduction of the Latifundia, would the farming tech be much of an issue, or would it even remain at the same level?

No but the Roman Empire didn't work that way, it needed to all these thing before a invasion succed, think of the Roman Empire as USA and Germany as Vietnam. Could the Roman Empire/USA win, well yes, but in the short (200 years) term, it wouldn't be worth it, it would just be a drain of money and lifes, while destroying the worth Germania did have (slaves and mercenaries).
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Look. I like AH because it lets you explore possibilities that did not actually happen. Now the Romans certainly thought they could create Provincia Germania. Suppose they succeeded. They got Britain, after all - a non-seafaring army just up and took Britain, this wild island that nobody even thought about much. What would it take for them to do the same thing in Germania - a region they had, after all, tried to conquer a couple of times. That, to me, would be an interesting conversation to read and to add to. Watching a dozen angry Internet people spend days criticizing the original post topic is not.


Problems, Britain is easier to defend, it was more developed, it was home to useful resources and it has a better climate than Germania Magna.
 
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No but the Roman Empire didn't work that way, it needed to all these thing before a invasion succed, think of the Roman Empire as USA and Germany as Vietnam. Could the Roman Empire/USA win, well yes, but in the short (200 years) term, it wouldn't be worth it, it would just be a drain of money and lifes, while destroying the worth Germania did have (slaves and mercenaries).

At the time of Augustus, Germania beyond the Rhine was already under Roman rule. If a fuck-up like Varus wasn't appointed as the Imperial Legate, would the the majority of tribal chieftains still revolt with Arminius? And if the Romans had retained Germania after Varus, you think they would have done nothing with the place, that they would not have exploited it for all it's worth?

Slaves could have been gotten anywhere. If all of Germania remained Roman, there were still other places beyond that to get their slaves. Plus there were plenty of Germanic tribes beyond the Elbe, as far as the Carpathian Mountains in fact. They probably would have provided mercs and auxilliaries.

So if the likes of the Chattii, the Cherusci, the Hermanduri, and the Batavii were sufficiently subdued and remained Roman by the end of the First Century, and most of Germania is a big, mediocre agricultural backwater, where most of the military are stationed around the Elbe River. Would the Romans just simply let it go after hundreds of years? They especially wouldn't surrender a large tax-base unless the threat on the frontier was that great.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
At the time of Augustus, Germania beyond the Rhine was already under Roman rule. If a fuck-up like Varus wasn't appointed as the Imperial Legate, would the the majority of tribal chieftains still revolt with Arminius? And if the Romans had retained Germania after Varus, you think they would have done nothing with the place, that they would not have exploited it for all it's worth?

Slaves could have been gotten anywhere. If all of Germania remained Roman, there were still other places beyond that to get their slaves. Plus there were plenty of Germanic tribes beyond the Elbe, as far as the Carpathian Mountains in fact. They probably would have provided mercs and auxilliaries.

So if the likes of the Chattii, the Cherusci, the Hermanduri, and the Batavii were sufficiently subdued and remained Roman by the end of the First Century, and most of Germania is a big, mediocre agricultural backwater, where most of the military are stationed around the Elbe River. Would the Romans just simply let it go after hundreds of years? They especially wouldn't surrender a large tax-base unless the threat on the frontier was that great.


Dacia (produced silver and gold) 260,
Limes Germanicus (The rich and densely populated southen part of Germany with agriculture like Gaul) 3rd century
Mesopotamia 118
Assyria 118
Armenia 118
Britainnia >410

All province which the empire abandoned. Germania Magna is going to be worth less than any of these. Germany is a long term investment, and like other Roman provinces rebellions is unavoideble and invasions even more so. At worst the Roman succed in creating a centralised province, which they abandons in the face of Germanic, Scythian or Hunnic invaders, which create a strong centralised state there. At best we end up with something like Romania/Dacia.
 
Dacia (produced silver and gold) 260,
Limes Germanicus (The rich and densely populated southen part of Germany with agriculture like Gaul) 3rd century
Mesopotamia 118
Assyria 118
Armenia 118
Britainnia >410

All province which the empire abandoned. Germania Magna is going to be worth less than any of these. Germany is a long term investment, and like other Roman provinces rebellions is unavoideble and invasions even more so. At worst the Roman succed in creating a centralised province, which they abandons in the face of Germanic, Scythian or Hunnic invaders, which create a strong centralised state there. At best we end up with something like Romania/Dacia.

The Romanian language survived because of the mountainous terrain which stopped assimilation, would this Romance language in Germania (Germano-Latin?) survive?
 

Susano

Banned
Did not the Romans have more advanced techniques for farming?
For mediterrean enviroments, sure.

The Empire, after all, supported a population much more dense than Northern Europe.
Because it was climatologcially-naturally more suitable, not becaus eof technologcial improvments.

Look. I like AH because it lets you explore possibilities that did not actually happen.
Yes, but pondering it on the net involves discussion, including the plausibility question. Its a valid part of AH discussion. But for the sake of said discussion, lets assume the Romans do manage to gainc ontrol o germania. maybe tehyr emotivated by trying to get all those unrestful peoples under their control instead of having constantly to worry about the Rhine border.

Its... possible. However, Roman culture and society was largely urban. Now, fortunately for them and admittedly, the Romans were also very good at founding cities, which they would have done in Germania (there was a report in TV some time ago - apparently the planned capital of transrhenanian Germania would have been quite near to where I live, actually.) However, outside their cities and forts and maybe some streets with way stations, out there in the nearly impenetrable thick forrests, I assume Roman rule would be shaky and superficial at best. Of course, the Romans let indigenous political and legal systems survive everywhere, but they made sure to always have the last word, so to say. This would not be guaranteed in such an enviroment. So to say, I think any province Germania Magna on a map would not have to be colorued Roman, but striped.

Now, long term development might well change that, its true. But Valdemars list of abandoned provinces of OTL speaks for itself. For the Romans not to abandon Germania would require them having no problems elsewhere (difficult) or having some extraordinary success in Germania due to some extraordinary circumstances (which always can happen, I suppose, but not regularily so).

In a less warlike atmosphere, perhaps after a century of secure and centralized Roman rule in Germania after Augustus' time, with growing townships, land clearances, drained marshes, and the introduction of the Latifundia, would the farming tech be much of an issue, or would it even remain at the same level?
Well, it did develop in the Middle Ages IOTL, so its possible. Still, I dont think you can pin it down on a warlike enviroment, its more the natural enviroment that was the problem...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The Romanian language survived because of the mountainous terrain which stopped assimilation, would this Romance language in Germania (Germano-Latin?) survive?

Honestly not likely, maybe a few enclaves in South Germany, but even the Alps ended up almost completely German speaking in OTL, so I don't give it good chances. Look at Limes Germanicus, it was only settled by Alamanni in the 3rd century, by the 6th it was likely completely Germanic speaking, and they was one of the tribes which after the fall made most impressive permanent inroads into Latin territorium.
 
Dacia (produced silver and gold) 260,
Limes Germanicus (The rich and densely populated southen part of Germany with agriculture like Gaul) 3rd century
Mesopotamia 118
Assyria 118
Armenia 118
Britainnia >410

All province which the empire abandoned. Germania Magna is going to be worth less than any of these. Germany is a long term investment, and like other Roman provinces rebellions is unavoideble and invasions even more so. At worst the Roman succed in creating a centralised province, which they abandons in the face of Germanic, Scythian or Hunnic invaders, which create a strong centralised state there. At best we end up with something like Romania/Dacia.

Mesopatmia, Armenia, and Assyria had to be abandoned by Hadrian because the Jewish populations from Cyrene to Syria were upset about the Roman invasion of Parthian territory. Hadrian had to protect what he already had. They were only held for a very short time. Trajan's conquests in the east were lasted four years between 113-117 CE.

Germania Magna was held for twenty-one years between 12 BCE until 9 CE. And Roman rule was already well in force until Arminius successfully lured all three of the Legions occupying Germania into a massacre.

Britain had to be abandoned by Roman authorities because between 406-10 CE, Gaul was overrun by Vandals, Visigoths, Suevi, and Alans.

Like I said, if the uprisings of the early decades fail, Germania would not simply be abandoned. Alternately, several client-states, based on particular tribal affiliations, would be established, if the whole thing proved to be a drain on manpower.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Mesopatmia, Armenia, and Assyria had to be abandoned by Hadrian because the Jewish populations from Cyrene to Syria were upset about the Roman invasion of Parthian territory. Hadrian had to protect what he already had. They were only held for a very short time. Trajan's conquests in the east were lasted four years between 113-117 CE.

Germania Magna was held for twenty-one years between 12 BCE until 9 CE. And Roman rule was already well in force until Arminius successfully lured all three of the Legions occupying Germania into a massacre.

Britain had to be abandoned by Roman authorities because between 406-10 CE, Gaul was overrun by Vandals, Visigoths, Suevi, and Alans.

Like I said, if the uprisings of the early decades fail, Germania would not simply be abandoned. Alternately, several client-states, based on particular tribal affiliations, would be established, if the whole thing proved to be a drain on manpower.

Which was more or less whjat the Romans did in OTL, and they still needed regular invasions to keep the barbarians in line, and look how that turned out, for the whole building up a permanent taxbase, let's look at Germania Inferior and Belgica, after centuries of building a taxbase in area, the Romans had to invade Germania Magna and ethnic relocate a defeated Frankish tribe into the two provinces borderlands and giving them foederalis status to create a stable and well defended border. It don't sound like centuries of Roman rule transformed that province into useful province, and it had better climate than Magna.
 
Which was more or less whjat the Romans did in OTL, and they still needed regular invasions to keep the barbarians in line, and look how that turned out, for the whole building up a permanent taxbase, let's look at Germania Inferior and Belgica, after centuries of building a taxbase in area, the Romans had to invade Germania Magna and ethnic relocate a defeated Frankish tribe into the two provinces borderlands and giving them foederalis status to create a stable and well defended border. It don't sound like centuries of Roman rule transformed that province into useful province, and it had better climate than Magna.

In previous decades, the Empire had been wracked by civil wars, which would caused the redeployment of troops elsewhere. In that time, border defences would have suffered. Raids from beyond the frontier, famines due to pillaged farms and untended fields, and heavy taxation incurred against provinces impoverished by warfare, would have caused a drop in the local populace. And of course, frequent enlistment of Barbarian tribes to help you fight your wars could be dangerous if you couldn't reward them properly. Which would have been why Julian gave the Salian Franks land in Belgica and Lower Germania. They would have been more useful under more benign circumstances, such as having a more stable form of government in Rome.
 
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